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OK, so here is the final word. The AWD system in the MS6 is not a Haldex unit as many have already said. So, that part will definitely NOT work in the MS6. Below is the e-mail:

Hi again Daniel,

No worries with the time :)
First: The schematic you attached shows in the first line that it is a Toyoda coupling and not a Haldex coupling since they are electro magnetic while the Haldex is an electro hydraulic unit.
Second: My responsibilities within Haldex covers the developement and calibration of the Ford vehicles and i am very sure that the only vehicles within Ford using our product are as following:

All Volvo models
Ford freestyle/500 (for the end of this year)
Mercury Montego (for the end of this year)
Landrover (starting this year)

It can also be discovered easily by looking under the car since we have an ECU attached to our unit saying Haldex and a RDU made by Getrag while Toyoda have a remote ECU in the trunk and a RDU manufactured by Dana.

Best Regards,
Mats


There you have it.
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Good investigating dstone...killer avatar too :laugh:

So enough of this haledex talk i think we need to get some info on our "toyota" system
 
If you guys get a front bias through corners you need to learn how to drive, plain and simple...
 
Wow, there would have been so many other ways to say that w/out sounding like... :)
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I know but it's the truth... my car power oversteers almost on command... then again I have never driven the with DSC on so I don't know how it acts...
 
i guess your car defys physics and that 3600lb brick automatically tucks in.
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Your an idiot.. every experienced person who posts track experience with the car says it oversteers on delivery...
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
Your an idiot.. every experienced person who posts track experience with the car says it oversteers on delivery...
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idiot now huh? okay sure your car oversteers asshole. Oversteer on delievery?? get your fat ugly ass off lala land man. Speed6 plowed worse then the STI does and STI is known for their understeer.
 
The Mazdaspeed oversteers on throtte lift, not application, just like an aggressively-tuned FWD car. Flooring it in a sweeper creates more understeer until you lift.

Do we need to beat this to death again? Sheesh. It's impossible to defy physics, but some certainly are good at ignoring it! :slap:

That said, the AWD guy sure sounds like he's familiar with the systems, but being that he's dealing with a simple coupling device (as he says), I'd say his claims of being able to make the car more like a RWD car are bogus. Even if the Mazdaspeed's system isn't a Haldex unit, the basics of the AWD system work exactly the same way, and I don't see how they are transferring torque to the rear mid-turn without a proper differential. For that reason, I don't think this product is worth persuing. That said, since his responses have been both informative and professional, I'm curious to know more about his product and how he says it works.
 
I give up with the ignorance on this forum...

My car as well as MANY others on this forum POWER OVERSTEER around corners with NO throttle lift... and as it has been said, even if its only 10% (which i really don't think it is) it still does it...

I wish at the last AutoX someone would have taken video... because the rear of the car was all over the place upon giving the car gas... not letting off...

Now lets resume beating the dead horse...



http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.php?showtopic=49304&st=30
http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.php?showtopic=52936

In those two threads alone THREE experienced AutoXrs all say the car throttle oversteers...

I really have to question the driving of people on this site if your car is plowing through corners...
 
Use a set of a dozen cones to set up a skid pad. You'll need a decent sized lot to safely make an >30mph skid pad. Start circling the skid pad you just created until you're at a moderate and sustainable speed and an RPM near the lower end of the car's torque peak (~3000rpm). Floor it and keep the throttle planted regardless of which direction your car goes.

Videotape it.

Every time you lift, the car will tuck right in and the rear may kick out, requiring throttle again to get the rear to stick. This is how it should be driven, and the Mazdaspeed is tweaked well enough that you can keep the car right at the limit rather easily by modulating the throttle. But if you don't lift at all, the car won't spin or require a reversing of steering input. It'll instead plow off in a very straightened line.

I could get the car to do all kinds of tricks on corner entry (it was very entertaining), but if I floored the car on corner exit it understeered like a FWD pig. This was repeatable. The car may have oversteered when launching with the steering wheel turned, but this isn't something that happens in a steady-state turn. To be fast, the car had to be driven exactly like a front-drive car: lift on entry to get some rotation, get on the throttle early, and very late apex.

As has been said a zillion times, a coupling device can't really transfer torque to the rear- it can only lock the center driveshaft, and in turns that isn't a good thing.

I know how to drive, and I'd welcome any challenge suggesting otherwise. I thought the Mazdaspeed had fantastic handling considering its heft- seriously. I was amazed at its dynamics- but steering with the throttle isn't its thing. If you're getting throttle oversteer, it's because that coupling device is engaged when it shouldn't be and the ENTIRE car is losing grip (due to binding forces) as a result. I look forward to seeing the results of anyone willing to videotape the above test.
 
Its very simple... if it can't be done why does everyone who has taken a speed6 on the track experience this??? I mean this isn't rocket science, and as much as you you can plead that it can't be done because of the coupling device it is being done, the car does it... end of story...

I mean hell... everyone on here said that the stock turbo can't spool till 6500 RPMS... which it clearly can... and even if it is very inneffecient and potentially losing power, the point is clear, everyone said IT COULD NOT BE DONE and it has happened...
 
The Mazdaspeed oversteers on throtte lift, not application, just like an aggressively-tuned FWD car. Flooring it in a sweeper creates more understeer until you lift.

Do we need to beat this to death again? Sheesh. It's impossible to defy physics, but some certainly are good at ignoring it! :slap:

That said, the AWD guy sure sounds like he's familiar with the systems, but being that he's dealing with a simple coupling device (as he says), I'd say his claims of being able to make the car more like a RWD car are bogus. Even if the Mazdaspeed's system isn't a Haldex unit, the basics of the AWD system work exactly the same way, and I don't see how they are transferring torque to the rear mid-turn without a proper differential. For that reason, I don't think this product is worth persuing. That said, since his responses have been both informative and professional, I'm curious to know more about his product and how he says it works.
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Not sure which AWD Guy you are referring to, if it's the guy that I quoted in my e-mail. I don't think he made any claims to the performance module itself. Only clarified, which AWD system the MS6 is (or rather is not) using. If that's not the AWD guy you speak of then disregard this portion of the post.

In any case if you're curious on how the Haldex performance module that originally started this thread works, I figured I'd help in getting more info on that. Basically it's a software upgrade that changes when the power transfer occurs, but does not change the overall amount of power being transferred. I.e. you still can't get over 50% power to the rear.

http://www.goapr.com.au/products/haldex.html

For the record I am not an AWD expert, I am just re-posting what I have found. Personally I don't plan on messing with the AWD system on my 6. I only researched it for pure academics.
 
Every time you lift, the car will tuck right in and the rear may kick out, requiring throttle again to get the rear to stick.

I could get the car to do all kinds of tricks on corner entry (it was very entertaining), but if I floored the car on corner exit it understeered like a FWD pig. This was repeatable.

I know how to drive, and I'd welcome any challenge suggesting otherwise. I thought the Mazdaspeed had fantastic handling considering its heft- seriously.
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I agree with everything you say as I experienced the same characteristics in an all day autox school here in the bay area a few weeks ago.
 
I agree with everything you say as I experienced the same characteristic in an ALL DAY autox school here in the bay area a few weeks ago.
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It does the same thing for me, too. Understeers under throttle at >30mph. Can kick the tail out by lifting the throttle. My tires must hate me. :)
 
an autocross situation is not the same as a skidpad. On the skidpad example, you are traveling at a constant speed, in a constant turning radius around the circle. Then you are adding power, which will result in understeer, or plowing.

In an autocross, you are most likely decelerating from a straight, then flicking the car into the turn while adding power. The flick, or quick turn of the steering wheel upsets the cars balance, as does adding power abruptly. The combination of these two things upset the rear end enough that it will break free under the power. If you really want to get the powerslide going and the back to rotate more - try the scandnavian flick before entering the turn. Look it up if you dont know what I am talking about.


I think you both are correct in the examples you are giving about the MS6's driving characteristics.
 
the only problem i see is that Haldex is the company that makes the AWD systems for Audi and VW, hence the reason why a Haldex controller would work on their cars. While we have some, but very few (K04 and reverse on the sifter,if that's even considered a german thing!), similarities to Vw's and Audi's, i do not think Mazda uses Haldex for their AWD systems. Don't quote me on this tho!
 
"Dana Corp. will provide AWD systems for the Fusion, Milan and Zephyr, a Ford spokesman says."

Looks like it is supplied by Dana. Of course, Dana is bankrupt. Not sure how the reorganization is coming along.
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the only problem i see is that Haldex is the company that makes the AWD systems for Audi and VW, hence the reason why a Haldex controller would work on their cars. While we have some, but very few (K04 and reverse on the sifter,if that's even considered a german thing!), similarities to Vw's and Audi's, i do not think Mazda uses Haldex for their AWD systems. Don't quote me on this tho!
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If you read the whole thread you have seen this has already been discussed. The AWD system is not provided by Haldex. Haldex has confirmed this. The AWD is most likely provded by Toyoda with a Dana RDU.
 
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