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Discussion Starter #1
I know I will get a lot of flamage for this, but I think people are a bit obsessed with the perceived need for tuning. Tuning will definitely add additional power, but with only bolt-ons, it will rarely be required.

The only situations where you need tuning are:

<blockquote>Changing the volumetric efficiency of the engine - ie. porting the heads, new camshafts, changing the static compression ratio, etc.
You exceed the fuel delivery capability of the stock system or change the injectors
You operate beyond the range of the stock fuel maps, either more boost or more rpm
Possibly reduced back pressure from a bigger turbine / 3" turbo back exhaust could change the VE</blockquote>

The stock fuel map's manifold absolute pressure axis goes from 20+ inches of vacuum to at least the 19 PSI boost limit.

The stock fuel map's RPM axis goes from 0 RPM to at least the red line, and probably a few hundred or more RPM past redline.

The stock coolant and air charge temperature sensors cover any operating range you would ever want to run at.

The engine has a MAF which measures the actual air mass entering the engine.

Adding a CAI, BOV, or more boost, or a FMIC will not require a tuning solution as it does not cause the engine to operate outside the range of the stock maps or change the VE of the engine.

Since every dyno run I've seen with stock maps is off the chart rich, I'd say that theres a huge safety margin built into the maps.

Add the bolt-ons you want, and when a tuning solution comes out, get it and enjoy the bonus power.
 

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thats the problem the stock system is rich as shit. no car should dip into the 9.xx:1 AFR range, every, you risk washing out the cylinders with unburnt fuel over time. We must lean this car out or there will be long term reliability problems. If you add more air the stock ECU is dumb, it will maintain its pre-programmed ratios and add guess what.... yup more fuel to the system. you will run "richer" unless you can control the stock system.
 

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thats the problem the stock system is rich as shit. no car should dip into the 9.xx:1 AFR range, every, you risk washing out the cylinders with unburnt fuel over time. We must lean this car out or there will be long term reliability problems. If you add more air the stock ECU is dumb, it will maintain its pre-programmed ratios and add guess what.... yup more fuel to the system. you will run "richer" unless you can control the stock system.
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Dont mind the n00b question, but is this the reason the exhuast outlets get black as sh*t after a day of driving.. with all this unburnt fuel?
 

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unburnt fuel will eventually lead to cat failure as well. mileage will also suffer. tuning is very necessary in this car.
 

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unburnt fuel will eventually lead to cat failure as well. mileage will also suffer. tuning is very necessary in this car.
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Your mileage probably wont change from going 9:1 to 11:1 from WOT runs, when your cruising, you should be right around 14.7.
But yea 9:1 can cause problems over time, we DO need to lean it out a little,

I was thinking of installing an afr / ebc, but I might as well get the DTEC that just came out for nearly the same price.

Also, to the OP, tuning will be very helpful for those with a fmic and /or running higher octane. Adding timing makes huge power in conjunction with bolt ons. Wont help me much cuz I run crap 91 all the time.
 

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Despite these gains, you'll often hear people say the most impressive part of this tuned reflash is the added smoothness of the engine:
 

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Despite these gains, you'll often hear people say the most impressive part of this tuned reflash is the added smoothness of the engine:

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Exactly my impression of the dtec results. Horsepower is not a tell all.
 

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It's not just about adding power. It's about making a personal statement - that you like power! :laugh:

No, really. It's a matter of personal taste that drives a tuner. Sure, the car is pretty good out of the box. The question is, how much better can it be and what does it take to get it there? It's fun doing mods and either seeing, feeling, or hearing the results. :yesnod:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I'm sure Mazda knows exactly what AFR the car runs at. If they thought it would cause problems they would have changed it.

Keep in mind that the car runs at WOT in open loop mode for a very small percentage of the time.

I'm not saying that tuning isn't desirable. I'm just saying that there isn't really a need to hold off on mods while you wait for it.
 

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Good points Steve. I've always seemed to say that tuning is necessary. This is a new platform. Have we always known, or do we yet, fully understand how the ECU (PCM in Mazda speak) reacts to all of the bolt ons (3 inch turbo back, including dp, intake), how the DISI system compensates to these power adders?

My understanding is that the Sti injectors reached their limit after an intake and full exhaust system were installed.

Perhaps I'm over cautious, or am looking at an upgrade path that incorporate reliability, safety, and durability and tuning. Adding stages much like the STi and EVO programs seems a very sound way to go rather than bolting up every power adder and hoping that the stock electronics and mechanics stand up to the changes.
I guess you have supported my point by saying it's necessary if you have a 3 inch turbo back exhaust and changing the volumetric efficiency of the engine.
 

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I'm sure Mazda knows exactly what AFR the car runs at. If they thought it would cause problems they would have changed it.

Keep in mind that the car runs at WOT in open loop mode for a very small percentage of the time.

I'm not saying that tuning isn't desirable. I'm just saying that there isn't really a need to hold off on mods while you wait for it.
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Just like i'm sure they knew that a scoopless top mount intercooler was a great idea? It's not just about WOT AFR, power enrichment and "on boost" tables are all causing this rich condition as well. Mazda uses excess fueling to compensate for the joke of an intercooler they have. It even says it in their literature, they tought the cooling effects of FSI.
 

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every turbo car comes running rich out of the box. the more u lean out the AFR, the more prone to knock it becomes. every car company will err on the side of caution so that this doesnt happen and they have to replace engine parts under warranty. leaning out the mixture doesnt necessarily mean that u will knock, but the chances of knocking will be greater.
 

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Its true you dont need to tune for the parts you put on, but isnt the whole point of putting them on to get the most power and speed out of those parts? Tunning for the those parts will make the car feel better and run better as well. When a SRT4 hits 18 pounds of boost on the stock ecu the car automatically start to pull timing and dump fuel to make up for it. Whats to say the speed6 isnt doing the same?
 

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I'm sure Mazda knows exactly what AFR the car runs at. If they thought it would cause problems they would have changed it.

Keep in mind that the car runs at WOT in open loop mode for a very small percentage of the time.

I'm not saying that tuning isn't desirable. I'm just saying that there isn't really a need to hold off on mods while you wait for it.
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That's the furthest from the truth. They do not use the optimal A/F ratio for performance. They make it extra rich. It done that way in almost all forced induction cars from the factory. It's done for added safety to avoid detonation.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Carbon buildup and a little fuel in the oil are far cheaper warranty claims than burnt out pistons or blown head gaskets due to detonation. Manufacturers do not tune for optimal power. They tune for max reliability for at least the warranty period.
 

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Carbon buildup and a little fuel in the oil are far cheaper warranty claims than burnt out pistons or blown head gaskets due to detonation. Manufacturers do not tune for optimal power. They tune for max reliability for at least the warranty period.
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exactly. isnt the purpose of performance modding to make your car put out optimal power? actually, tuning doesn't even have to be about power. you can tune for reliability. personally, ill be watching the knock sensor while im tuning. lets not forget that mazda released the ms6 with a high probability of knocking.
 

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exactly. isnt the purpose of performance modding to make your car put out optimal power? actually, tuning doesn't even have to be about power. you can tune for reliability. personally, ill be watching the knock sensor while im tuning. lets not forget that mazda released the ms6 with a high probability of knocking.
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Ever since I heard my car knocking I havent driven it really hard. I figured the high heat and advanced timing for 93 octane are causing this. I was gonna get the reflash done, but I dont really want to "reduce the sensativity on the knock sensor or lose timing" or whatever the reflash does, so Im gonna take it easy until I get a fmic, and an led knock sensor light
 

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Ever since I heard my car knocking I havent driven it really hard. I figured the high heat and advanced timing for 93 octane are causing this. I was gonna get the reflash done, but I dont really want to "reduce the sensativity on the knock sensor or lose timing" or whatever the reflash does, so Im gonna take it easy until I get a fmic, and an led knock sensor light
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You sound like people that "self medicate" w/ a homegrown mix of vicadin and alcohol.

This is a new car, it's covered under warranty, go get the reflash and have them fix the car so it is operating properly.
 

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exactly. isnt the purpose of performance modding to make your car put out optimal power? actually, tuning doesn't even have to be about power. you can tune for reliability. personally, ill be watching the knock sensor while im tuning. lets not forget that mazda released the ms6 with a high probability of knocking.
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Get the reflash. My car runs 100% better. Power delivery is smoother and there isn't any degrade in performance.

Carbon buildup and a little fuel in the oil are far cheaper warranty claims than burnt out pistons or blown head gaskets due to detonation. Manufacturers do not tune for optimal power. They tune for max reliability for at least the warranty period.
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You just answered your question on why everyone wants tuning. It is possible to tune for added performance and still have reliability and still have the engine operate safely.
 
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