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Originally posted by Atlec@Oct 19 2005, 04:25 PM
I have some Goodyear Eagle LS on there now.  They were ok, but wore out now. 

In a couple weeks I am replacing them with Bridgestone Turanza LS-H tires.  They are priced at $150 a tire at local tire shops, I talked them down at $112.25 a tire, which was cheaper then what tirerack.com had them listed for.

I'll let you know how I like them.  They better be worth it.
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They are probably H-rated. Really crappy if you do any spirited driving IMO...oh wait you already have GY LS's...nevermind, you already know :hoho: . I had Dunlop W-10's V rated on another car in 205/50/16 and then switched to Firehawk gta's in H-rated.....almost killed myself driving they were so night and day. I suggest the LS-V's...check them out instead.
 

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I currently own Michelins, a set of Bridgestones, a set of Toyos, and a set of Falkens. I've had two different sets on this week. The tires I currently have mounted are not the ones I wish I had mounted. Which do I choose? :p

Not to be the downer, but I honestly don't see the usefullness of this thread. Michelin makes some great tires, and they make some crappy ones. Most companies do.

One thing that's clear is how much influence ToyoGuy has had here. Holy crap! Well, good for ToyoGuy, I guess. I didn't realize so many people were buying Toyo tires!

Toyo does make decent tires, but I definately prefer Falken Ziex 512's to Proxes4's (if you want a four season tire) and Azenis (and FK-451's) to Toyo T1-R's (if you want a three season tire). Falken, thus, is currently my favorite tire company. Hankook seems to have some nice values out there, and I may try the Z212's next year. The Goodyear GDS3 is also supposed to be wonderful.

I do like the durability Toyo's RA1's, but I think I'm the only person running those. I hear Kumho V710's are The Thing To Have now, as they grip like Hoosiers but last far longer. RA1's last a while, but don't grip anywhere near Hoosiers.
 

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Originally posted by Stretch+Oct 21 2005, 09:54 AM-->
Not to be the downer, but I honestly don't see the usefullness of this thread. 
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Actually, I think this is very informative. It certainly shows what brands people prefer when replacing their stock Michelins. I would think most people that have voted that they have Michelins are people that still have the original tires.

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2005, 09:54 AM
One thing that's clear is how much influence ToyoGuy has had here.  Holy crap!  Well, good for ToyoGuy, I guess.  I didn't realize so many people were buying Toyo tires!
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I appreciate the compliment, but I only wish that were true! Many people on this board were running Toyos long before I got here. Remember, I've only been on this board about a year.

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@Oct 21 2005, 09:54 AM
Toyo does make decent tires, but I definately prefer Falken Ziex 512's to Proxes4's (if you want a four season tire) and Azenis (and FK-451's) to Toyo T1-R's (if you want a three season tire).  Falken, thus, is currently my favorite tire company.
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Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and more serious drivers may have preferences outside the mainstream as some tires' personalities suit their driving styles better. However, Toyo Tires have been rated #1 in product quality for 9 years in a row by tire dealers themselves. This is compiled by Tire Review magazine, an industry trade publication. Toyo T1-S tires were used as the spec race tire for a couple of seasons for the Speed World Challenge Series! Vehicles equipped with Toyo Tires have won many magazine handling tests over the years. The Toyo Open Country M410 light truck tire was rated #1 in Consumer Reports in 2002. To call Toyo a "decent" tire is a backhanded compliment at best.

Not to knock Falken (as I think they make a pretty good tire), but they're not even ranked on the list (and there's 14 brands on the list, including Kumho, Hankook and brands you might not know like Dayton, Mastercraft and Sumitomo). Obviously, Falken is not on the radar screens of the consumer or most tire dealers. That's not to say they are not a good tire, but if there was huge demand for Falken, most dealers would have it. Quite frankly, Yokohama would be my second preferred brand, as I like their tires, too. Especially the new Advan series.

Originally posted by Stretch@Oct 21 2005, 09:54 AM
RA1's last a while, but don't grip anywhere near Hoosiers.
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This is true, but the RA-1 is not a direct competitor to the Hoosier. Although they are both race tires, the Hoosier is designed for all out grip at the expense of treadlife (you're lucky to get two race weekends out of them) while the RA-1s offer a balance of grip and treadlife. It was designed to be a spec tire for several race series (Spec Miata, Spec RX-7, Speed World Challenge, etc). Competitors can easily get a full season out of a set of RA-1s. It depends on the race series you are competing in and your tire budget as to whether the RA-1 or a tire like the Hoosier would make more sense for you.
 

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Since ToyoGuy likes me to elaborate on everything, heregoes:

For the record, I do like and recommend Toyo tires. They are among the best in the business. I still find these results surprising because three times more people are buying Toyos than the next highest non-stock tire company. Certainly Toyos are good, but I don't think they're universally the best, and they're certainly not the easiest to find!

I think the Proxes4's are a higher performance tire than the Falken Ziex 512's, but only by a very small margin. I like the 512's better because they are quieter and perform better (though not well) in the snow, and that makes them a better tire for the typical "all season" audience. I have not tried the Toyo TPT, but as it is marketed as a touring tire, I suspect it will not have the grip of the 512's (or the Proxes4). The tread widths looks small for a given tire size, too. The Proxes4 would make a great 3-season long-life tire because it is comfortable, but the droning hum prevents me from recommending them for that, too. It's minor, I'll admit, but it's there.

I thus consider the Proxes4, which I think most people here run, is a 3-season tire for those who need long tread life, don't race, and have aftermarket exhausts or always play loud music. That's a very specific audience. The reason the results of this survey surprise me is because I would expect the Falken Ziex 512 to have a much wider appeal.

The other popular Toyo tire, the T1-R, is frustrating. Crossbow is in the midst of selling his. Neither he nor I like them as a performance tire. They squeal easily and early, even now after many thousands of miles and track events with which to wear the tread down. Other summer tires I've had don't make a sound unless you drive really stupidly on them, something I value in a street tire. I don't like people to notice me when the tail slips out or the inside wheel starts spinning. I can't speak much for the T1-R's limits, but Crossbow says they're somewhat disappointing. This doesn't exactly make sense because the T1-S was very impressive.

Crossbow suspects this is from mounting wide 245's on 'skinny' 8" wide wheels, whereas he used to have 225's on the same width. I'd argue that this size would be a good fit with a stiff enough sidewall (it works for me, along with many others), so perhaps the problem is that the T1-R's have too soft of a sidewall. That's only speculation. Crossbow has played with tire pressures. Do people running 225's on 7" wide wheels have the same problem? In any event, while I haven't tried all the high performance summer tires, I'm disappointed enough in the T1-R to say that there is a better choice out there for the enthusiast, whatever it is. Again, I'm not sure where the market is for this tire such that three times more people are buying Toyos than any other brand.

For balls-out performance, there is nothing better than the Falken Azenis RT-615. That's going to be just a niche group. For something less raw, the Hankook Z212, Goodyear GDS3, and Falken FK-451 all seem to be great choices. I'm sure there are others, too. Especially for the price, there is no way I'd ever consider the T1-R over the Z212. Being that Goodyear, Hankook, and Falken all seem to be easier to find (is that just me?), how'd everyone get Toyos? Tireswap.com?

I mentioned the RA-1 in reference to Hoosier not because they're competitors, but because the Kumho V710 offers the best of both worlds. It looks like I'll get two seasons of racing out of RA-1's, the same as many are getting out of V710's. However, the V710's are much faster (and a little cheaper).

I'm sure you'll take the final word. I don't really care what people buy; I'm just surprised. I guess a year ago I recommended Toyos to everybody, just like everyone else did then. Perhaps everyone owns them from back then. Ultimately, I was disappointed with both new offerings (the Proxes4 and T1-R), but I expected them to surpass everything on the market when they "only" matched it.
 

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Where did I ask you to elaborate? :nana:

For the record, I do like and recommend Toyo tires.
Based on some of your recent posts, I hadn't gotten that impression.

I don't need to have the last word, as you say, but I'd like to address some of your comments.

Regarding the T1R and crossbow's experience, you nailed it on the head. IIRC, he has 245/40R17 on 17x8. While 8 inch wheels certainly aren't skinny, they are the narrowest wheel you can put that size on. If you want to maximize a certain size's handling capabilities, you should mount it on the widest wheel that size will accept, not the narrowest. This surely must be a contributing factor to yours/crossbow's frustration.

My own personal experience on T1Rs has been somewhat different. Although I have not put my car on a track, I have pushed them pretty damn hard on public highways and have yet to be able to get them to squeal. I will admit that when I first had the T1Rs installed, I was a bit disappointed with them. Turn-in response was not as sharp as I like. Now that I have over 22,000 miles on them, I find that turn-in response is improved.

Cornering grip is very impressive, but the T1Rs don't "talk" to you as much as I like. That is, the feedback from the steering is slightly disconnected from what the tires are doing. In my experience, there are VERY FEW tires short of race tires that can do this (to the level I like). One was the Yokohama A520. The tradeoff, though, was that the tires had an extremely firm ride and got very noisy after 20,000 miles.

As sports coupes and sedans get more sophisticated, as much priority gets placed on ride comfort and low noise as does cornering ability. The T1R is not a racing tire, but it is more than capable for aggressive highway driving for 99% of drivers. Certainly, I think the T1R is more capable than the Mazda6 stock suspension. Most drivers will not exceed the T1Rs limits on the street. Additionally, the T1R delivers an unbelievably smooth and quiet ride, even after 20,000 miles that I don't think is matched by any other low profile tire on the market. If it's a race tire you want, then perhaps the Falken is the better choice. I just don't think that's what most consumers want. Our goal is to give the market what it demands.

Regarding Toyo availability, even if Toyos are hard to find, it speaks volumes about consumer perception of Toyo that people will go out of their way to obtain them.
 

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You don't need to say it, by now I know you always like me to elaborate!

Regarding the T1R and crossbow's experience, you nailed it on the head. IIRC, he has 245/40R17 on 17x8. While 8 inch wheels certainly aren't skinny, they are the narrowest wheel you can put that size on. If you want to maximize a certain size's handling capabilities, you should mount it on the widest wheel that size will accept, not the narrowest. This surely must be a contributing factor to yours/crossbow's frustration.
Well, yeah, that's what we were thinking- except we've had 225/45/17's on 17x7's that behaved much better, and that's a similar situation. I know sidewall stiffness is a ride quality trade-off, but I don't think running the minimum spec wheel would be as much an issue if the sidewall were stiffer. I suspect that Toyo's newest tires are optimized for lower profile configurations (just look at how the tire sizes have changed), thus they went with a softer sidewall design. I say this because the T1-S on 17x7's wasn't this noisy.

Too bad tires are so expensive. I'd love to put 225's on his front tires to see if the car over/understeer more/less. I think part of the problem also is that Crossbow desperately needs a huge rear sway bar, softer front springs, or firmer rear springs. The car understeers a lot.

To create a similar experiment to learn from, I offered to swap my tires around (I have 245's and 225's both on 8" wide wheels) to see what happens, but being RA1's I think it'll be a whole different bag 'o beans. The sidewalls are way firmer than street tires and don't deform much at all.
 

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Just to add something though...

I apparently have the same setup as stretch on the reverse stagger - 245F, 225R on BFG R1. I, unlike stretch, do NOT like the setup, and will end up getting 225's all around once the 245 have worn out. I have always raced in a circuit/track environment and I'm very used to a neutral balanced setup... I'm getting quite a bit too much oversteer for my tastes, considering I don't even have the sways yet.. My car will go into drift mode and end up going sideways on occasion. Mazda6sMtx has rode with me a couple of times and can attest to that.

Just my .02
 

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Those 2 guys must have been English majors.

The only "expertise" I got is my Ziex 512 are wearing out faster than a bad suit. I got about 6k on them and the sides are fading fast. Never had a tire look so bad after 6k. The performance of the tire is excellent no question there.

I really dont think I will get more than 25k out of these 512s.
 

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in summer i use vredestein sporttrack2 giugiaro design, and in winter vredestein snowtrack :) very pleased with this brand
 

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Originally posted by BangHatch@Oct 22 2005, 01:02 AM
Just to add something though...

I apparently have the same setup as stretch on the reverse stagger - 245F, 225R on BFG R1.  I, unlike stretch, do NOT like the setup, and will end up getting 225's all around once the 245 have worn out. I have always raced in a circuit/track environment and I'm very used to a neutral balanced setup... I'm getting quite a bit too much oversteer for my tastes, considering I don't even have the sways yet.. My car will go into drift mode and end up going sideways on occasion. Mazda6sMtx has rode with me a couple of times and can attest to that.

Just my .02
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"Speed insurance". Lift at your own peril! I'm convinced it's the only way to do FWD fast. Even still, remind me of what the rest of your suspension looks like. I've found that the stagger doesn't change the handling bias of the car much (there's hardly a bias difference going from my street to r-comp tires), but it should be helping get the tires up to temperatures more evenly from having more rubber.

Originally posted by calgary2800@Oct 22 2005, 03:44 AM
Those 2 guys must have been English majors.

The only "expertise" I got is my Ziex 512 are wearing out faster than a bad suit. I got about 6k on them and the sides are fading fast. Never had a tire look so bad after 6k. The performance of the tire is excellent no question there.

I really dont think I will get more than 25k out of these 512s.
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You may want to check your alignment. After ~10k or so, my 512's look pretty much virgin.
 

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Originally posted by Stretch@Oct 23 2005, 09:10 AM
"Speed insurance".  Lift at your own peril!  I'm convinced it's the only way to do FWD fast.  Even still, remind me of what the rest of your suspension looks like.  I've found that the stagger doesn't change the handling bias of the car much (there's hardly a bias difference going from my street to r-comp tires), but it should be helping get the tires up to temperatures more evenly from having more rubber.
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Suspension is simply just the D2's with the R-comps and 16x8 wheels.. Hmm, I haven't tried AutoXing with anything else except the stock tires and the R-comps. Although, no matter how shitty the stocks were, I never got to break the rear loose without control (I used braking to rotate the car). The R-comps, on the other hand, just break loose on the verge of spinning out and have to countersteer and powerout to regain control (and I don't use braking to rotate the car with those tires). Now, I do have experience with R-comps already, and which is why I didn't go through street tires; and I do know that that's how racing tires are (grip, grip, grip, grip, squeel, gone!) due to the stiff sidewalls, unlike street tires (grip, grip, sqquueeeelll, little grip, heavy squeeeeellll, gone) where there's a clear warning before it breaks loose.

So basically, I can't say for sure based on what you said, whether it's the stagger or not. I also can't confirm whether the rears aren't getting enough heat which is a large possibility, however, in some occassions I could get 2-3 runs in almost complete succession, yet it would still happen - Which although, I would not still be able to confirm the temps without the proper gauge to do so, which I don't have. Could it also be that since I have a hatch, there's an empty void in the trunk area?

Well, I have learned to deal with it in any case. I don't think I can deal with it on a race track though.
 

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Originally posted by BangHatch@Oct 22 2005, 01:02 AM
Just to add something though...

I apparently have the same setup as stretch on the reverse stagger - 245F, 225R on BFG R1.  I, unlike stretch, do NOT like the setup, and will end up getting 225's all around once the 245 have worn out. I have always raced in a circuit/track environment and I'm very used to a neutral balanced setup... I'm getting quite a bit too much oversteer for my tastes, considering I don't even have the sways yet.. My car will go into drift mode and end up going sideways on occasion. Mazda6sMtx has rode with me a couple of times and can attest to that.

Just my .02
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Oh yeah your is acts like it is rear wheel drive, once the tires are hot. I would like to try your tires next season on my car and see if it handles the same way as yours. Although I will be adding the RB sways soon. So they will affect the rotation of the car. I wonder if maybe you are using to much air pressure in the rear or not enough in the front. I have my tires at 45 - 50 psi in the front and like 37.5ish in the rear. I think you were running something like 35 psi all around which might be a little light in the front and is causing the front to grip to much and the rear not enough.


On the subject of tires, I know that the V6 stock is already far to much power for the stock tires. My tread is starting to come off in chunks, and the rubber is melting and being pushed over the spaces between the treads. Now that the weather had gotten colder the my stock tires are just about useless. I oversteered on a highway onramp and was facing oncoming traffic, I was only going 45km/h. The tires just slid no grip no noise. I think I will be getting another set of all-seasons to replace the stock tires. Then once I get a nice set of wheels I'll get some good summer rubber. Since I have my own garage I'll just change tires however the weather see fit, which isn't a big deal.

By the end of next year I should have 3 sets of wheels + tires. I hope to get a set of 17x8.5 with some Falken RT-615 for the summer and autoX ((Tax return is going to be big)). Toyo Proxes 4 for the fall and spring. I already have some Kumho winter tires.
 

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Mazda6sMtx,
That might be a possibility next season to use my tires ;) We'll see. As long as we double entry your car for two drivers!!! (You and me :p hahaha) Regarding the pressure, I wouldn't have run it on 35psi for sure though. I'd aim for about 34 hot. Tire pressure characteristics for street and R-compound tires are different. Remember what Alan (Scarboro Mazda) mentioned? He used those tires (same as mine) in his Rx-7 race car and couldn't get the sidewalls to fold even at 12 psi. LOL
 

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3-season: Toyo Proxes TPTs in 215/50-17 size
Winter: Nokian RSIs in 205/60-16

Nokian's aren't on the list.
 

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Originally posted by ezeQuel@Oct 22 2005, 04:19 PM
in summer i use vredestein sporttrack2 giugiaro design, and in winter vredestein snowtrack :) very pleased with this brand
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Vredestein's rock! Had some on a Citroen BX19GT years ago, and loved 'em. Tough to find on this side of the pond though.
 

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Originally posted by Skibum@Oct 26 2005, 08:59 PM
Vredestein's rock!  Had some on a Citroen BX19GT years ago, and loved 'em.  Tough to find on this side of the pond though.
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I Know!!! AN d are at reasonable prices!
 
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