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VVT problem? Repair sugestions? Advise?

83K views 42 replies 18 participants last post by  moe 
#1 ·
Hi guys, recently my Speed has developed a rattle just after turnover for about a second or so. From a little research I am thinking its the VVT assembly, or actuator or something? My knowledge here is lacking somewhat. But if someone could check the videos in the links and confirm/advise, it would be appreciated.

Startup1 - YouTube

startup 3 - YouTube

If it is the VVT, I believe its a pricey fix. My car is on just over 80k so the warranty replacement I came across most likely wouldn't apply. Is this repair something a regular garage could accommodate, or should I just take it to a Mazda dealer (bought it Nov last year) I have emailed the Mazda dealer I purchased it from for a tentative quote (buttocks clenched).

Do I have to replace the timing chain also when doing this fix? Thats was something I was also not clear about, if someone could enlighten me what exactly is involved that would be cool.

One other thing, would driving the car do it any harm? the car drives, runs and pulls sweet after its started up, just those first couple of seconds. Its my work daily driver hence my concern about driving it.

Anyway, all advice, tips welcome, appreciate it guys

Trip
 
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#3 ·
You don't have to have the timing chain replaced when you do the VVT actuator but it's a good precautionary measure. A lot of times the cause of failure of one is due to the other and vice versa. You can check your timing chain tensioner by sticking your finger inside the oil fill cap and pulling on the chain to see if there is any noticeable slack. Our remove your valve cover and check for scoring on the underside.

I would recommend having a shop do it, but make sure it's a reputable shop, doesn't have to be a dealer. Either way you're looking at $500-600 for the VVT including labor and around $1200 for both the timing chain, tensioner and VVT assembly including labor from the dealer.
 
#4 ·
Thanks for the reply...and ouch...Will I be ok driving it for a bit untill I can get it booked in somewhere? Also, how long would someone need the car, is it a day thing or more likely a few days somewhere?

Trip
 
#5 ·
Most likely would need to have the car for 2 days, but it can be done in 1. I don't suggest driving it until you get the VVT fixed, cuz if the pin snaps off, who knows where it will end up. (timing chain, oil pan, etc.) It could happen at any time.
 
#6 ·
VVT is kinda like the lottery. Some folks have been playing with a start up rattle for months/years, others have failed almost instantly after noticing the noise. To know for sure where you stand, pull the valve cover and look for wear around the pin on the VVT unit. You DO NOT want it to fail as it will bounce back & forth between extremes of valve timing with no control doing bad things to the running engine...

Both the VVT and the TC tension involve oil pressure, so check chain tension on both a warm & cold (overnight) engine. That rattle you're describing is either the pin rattling around in it's hole before pressure builds, and wearing the hole till bad things happen or a very loose TC hitting the valve cover.

Timing chain is highly suggested due to A) original chains being slightly substandard materials and able to stretch slightly and B) the tensioner wearing out, also possibly earlier than intended.

Remove oil fill cap and stick your finger in there & lift chain (with the engine off if you're particularly fond of your finger....). While in there, feel as much of the cover over the chain as you can, looking for any scoring that might indicate the chain has made contact with the valve cover.

Warm engine should be tight, cold engine should be almost tight, but moist likely isn't which would be a symptom of the tensioner beginning to fail.


Thread with pics of failed VVT guts & stretched chain
My MS6 VVT and chain fix (with an Added issue) - Mazdaspeed Forums


..
 
#8 ·
Appreciate the advice guys, did check the tension of the chain, there seems a little bit of movement in there a coule of mm maybe, engine was warm also. Never checked or seen one checked before, so don't really know how to gage it. But if tight means no play, then its not tight.


Been calling around trying to find somewhere to get he work done, two garages hadn't heard of a speed 6, one had, and wouldn't touch the timing chain with a barge pole....


Dealership I bought from is about 35 miles away, explicitly told me not to drive it there, tried to arrange a tow from my work, no dice today. There is a Mazda dealer about 3-4 miles away, who said I can drop it off and they will check out tomorrow.

A tentative quote was around 1400 (argh!!) I am hoping thats worst case. But at least I can get it looked at.


Man I love this car but its killing me at the moment...
 
#10 ·
Just gotta nutt up. It was around 1200 for me to get the VVT done at the dealer.

Took it to three auto shops prior and no one wanted to get their dicks wet with it.

"It's a bitch" one of them told me.

Dealer had it done in 2 days and gave me a free wash.

PS I drove with the infamous noise for about 4-5 months, no issues (luckily).
 
#11 ·
I almost hope mine would fail so I can justify a stage X rebuild and forge it up.

Then again. Wait. Never mind, thats what I want
 
#12 ·
Well the dealer called and its 1280 all in, VVT, timing chain and oil, gotta admit I am happy with that. I was scaring myself reading posts from CX7 owners with quotes of 2.5 for the job, but mostly due to the fact I have been driving around in my wifes 96 escort LX wagon for a day.....actually, I will happily pay twice that just to get my baby back and out of this POS!

Sucks it happened....kinda glad it has though, as it was one of those, is it gonna break type of worries....least i get a bit of piece of mind for a while now.

Plus I actually found a dealer I like, courteous, responsive, willing to help, different world form the sorry excuse of a mazda dealer i got the car from.
 
#13 ·
...

Plus I actually found a dealer I like, courteous, responsive, willing to help, different world form the sorry excuse of a mazda dealer i got the car from.
You sir, just found a unicorn. :eek:
 
#14 · (Edited)
Tripol, I am sitting in the dealership waiting room as I type this.

I came in for an oil change and to have them diagnose my engine startup rattle. It's been throwing 2 cels related to VVT and I decided to do some homework on the issue while I'm waiting.

As luck would have it, your thread is on the front page, and your YOUTUBE video is exactly what my engine is doing on startup. It's been doing it for about a month now.

I sweet-talked the parts guy into printing me a couple quotes.

It's $373.91 in parts JUST to replace the VVT actuator.

It's $513.39 to replace VVT actuator and timing chain replacement.

He also gave me a printout of the complete 28page Service Bulletin Printout and it calls for 3.2hrs labor for just the actuator, and another 1.5hrs for the timing chain.

So all in, you're $513.39 + 4.7hrs labor... which means they're charging you $160hr for labor. I'd get an itemized quote referencing bulletin number 01-012/12 issued 04/03/2012.

If your pin has actually fallen out, they may feel they need to pull and replace the oil pan to find it, which might justify the high price quote.

I'm also very happy to hear somebody say 70k miles because I just rolled over 54k... but the bulletin specifically says "THIS REPAIR WILL BE COVERED UNDER MAZDA'S NEW VEHICLE LIMITED WARRANTY TERM FOR A POWERTRAIN COMPONENT". I have no idea how long my original powertrain warranty is good for. More research begins MEOW.

EDIT: After additional research, I've found that Mazda extended all DISI motors of our generation to a 70k mile warranty... I think it has to do with what California requires for new car sales. Anyways, my work will be covered, but at 80k, I think you're SOL.

I'm at Ray Brant Mazda in New Orleans... these guys have been awesome.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Mazda has extended warranty for TWO commonly occurring problems only. This is not a comprehensive warranty extension. The warranty only includes.

VVT actuator failure
Smoking turbo at idle

All other issues will NOT be covered under warranty unless you are still within warranty period or you have an extended service plan. You, at 54k, would have had the VVT replaced under warranty, which would explain the low time of labor. Warranty only pays a dealership for HALF of the actual time necessary to complete ANY job. Actual time to complete the job when NOT under warranty, is closer to 9hrs of shop labor. Which would explain $160/hr labor. Most dealerships charge $70-80/hr for labor. Do the math.


Also, the pin doesn't fall out, it snaps. Either way, you are looking at potentially catastrophic damage to your motor. If it lodges itself in the timing chain, bye-bye motor. You should be so lucky if it makes it to the pan without any issues.
 
#15 ·
Yea I heard about the service plan, kind of pissed i couldn't use it, even printed out the letter that was sent to folks in some vain attempt to plead my case.


But I am just glad its getting done now, after spending 3 hours on the phone with my boss giving me a death stare trying to find someone who would touch it, I was happy to find a dealer that could assist. The dealer i purchased from wouldn't even help out arranging a tow.


I will try and get an itemized breakdown though, I was kind of expecting one, but from other reading I have been doing about the subject, around 1200 seems to be an average, so I happy, well as happy as I can be with a lighter wallet.


And as i finish that sentence, dealer just called to let me know all finished, result:) 1 day wihtout driving it and I missed it soo bad!
 
#17 ·
Timing chain is covered!

January 2012

2007-2010 CX-7, 2007-2010 Mazdaspeed3, 2006-2007 Mazdaspeed6 – L3T Engine
Variable Valve Timing Noise and Timing Chain Noise
Warranty Extension Program - Special Service Program (SSP) 87

Dear Mazda Owner:
Mazda Motor Corporation has decided to conduct a Special Service Program (SSP) to extend the warranty coverage for the specific repair of variable valve timing (VVT) noise and/or timing chain noise concern, on certain 2007-2010 CX-7 vehicles equipped with L3T engine and produced from February 14, 2006 through February 26, 2010, and 2007-2010 Mazdaspeed3 vehicles equipped with L3T engine and produced from June 28, 2006 through February 27, 2010, and 2006-2007 Mazdaspeed6 vehicles equipped with L3T engine and produced from August 4, 2005 through June 30, 2007.
The warranty coverage for the specific repair is extended to 7 years (84 months) from the original warranty start date or 70,000 miles, whichever comes first
 
#19 ·
VVT actuator and Timing Chain replacement

Im currently going through a VVT Actuator failure and timing slop and noise issues( 2006 Mazdaspeed 6 75k) Just bought the car at a dealer and they said everything checked out(obviously not), took it to mazda to do the warranty recall on the purge valve, obdII and engine light issue and found out the vvt actuator has failed causing the timing chain to have slop and chat while running. GREAT CAUSE IM 5K OUTTA MAZDAS OTHER WARRANTY EXTENSION ON THAT ISSUE. Thankfully I bought an EXTENDED WARRANTY that covers timing chain and vvt actuator, so Im only out $100 bucks as long as they dont deny it.
Does anyone have any suggestions if they find a way to deny my claim? And i also made the dealer do a oil change when i bought it. Ive only put 200 miles on the car since i bought it.
 
#20 ·
Im currently going through a VVT Actuator failure and timing slop and noise issues( 2006 Mazdaspeed 6 75k) Just bought the car at a dealer and they said everything checked out(obviously not), took it to mazda to do the warranty recall on the purge valve, obdII and engine light issue and found out the vvt actuator has failed causing the timing chain to have slop and chat while running. GREAT CAUSE IM 5K OUTTA MAZDAS OTHER WARRANTY EXTENSION ON THAT ISSUE. Thankfully I bought an EXTENDED WARRANTY that covers timing chain and vvt actuator, so Im only out $100 bucks as long as they dont deny it.
Does anyone have any suggestions if they find a way to deny my claim? And i also made the dealer do a oil change when i bought it. Ive only put 200 miles on the car since i bought it.
If the are inspecting the VVT they will pull the valve cover off and actually look at it. There is no "maybe" on diagnosing it once they do that, but you should be fine. Can always contact corporate if they are not conducting business well.
 
#23 ·
I am with oh yeams6, they should cover it, as it is an issue created by the warranty claim. It's not like your going into the shop asking them to check out a weird sound coming out of the oil pan.
 
#24 ·
There broken cheap shit caused the issue. They should be paying. Insert rant here.
 
#25 ·
Funny thing is, the time that was spent debating whether to cover it or not was, I'm sure, longer than it takes to pull the oil pan & get the pin.

The better concern is if anything else was damaged by having that pin floating around loose...
 
#26 ·
Does the pin just fall out or does it break and then the pieces fall out? Not that this changes my they should pay. Just curious
 
#27 ·
Unless you invert the vehicle that pin will remain harmlessly at the bottom. The worst case scenario is running through the oil pump drive on the way to the bottom and damaging the chain without anyone knowing which leads to a latent failure. Seeings how its not dead now, I wouldn't worry about it.

FWIW: I am all for doing the right thing, but I wouldn't loose sleep over it. Pick a time a plan a date. These have a windage tray so unless your oil pickup screen has a big hole it; its NBD. Then again this is interweb advice!!!
 
#28 ·
ANY free floating metal in the system is bad mojo. Attempting to justify anything else is just silly.

Heck, I get better airflow if I don't run an air filter...


Seriously, takes ~15-20 minutes to drain & drop the oil pan on a speed6.
Tales another 20 to clean it up, verify no other odd bits of metal in the pan or drained oil and to scrape the old gasket material off,
add in a bonus 10 minutes to stare at the rods and visually inspect the bottom end & oil pickup,
and then another 5 to test fit the oil pan,
then 20 more to apply the sealant and reinstall.

Don't forget to replace oil and a fresh filter.


Less than 2 hours on a saturday afternoon, including time for a beer. And a nice field trip to add entertainment value to a basic oil change.
 
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#29 ·
Hey all,

I'd like to add to the sauce....
Its been colder the last few weeks and I started to notice a light rattle/clunking until the motor warms up. I almost thought it was rod related but isn't perfectly consistent. I noticed it doesn't do it once up to operating temp.

I stuck my finger way in the oil oil and felt between the rear sprocket and the VVT and discovered a shit ton of play. (1/2 inch at least)

I'm pretty sure its the chain or the tensioner that is making that knock/rattle type of noise. (coming from under the PMM - hard to dial in exactly where though).



So I called my local mazda dealer. she was nice. looked up my records from previous owners and the last data was from 12k miles. Im now at 57k. No luck there. she said they can pull the valve cover to find sludge -- if no sludge they would try to submit to mazda, but no guarantees.


Besides the VVT, Chain, Bolts, Tensioner should I have them replace the chain guide and lever?

No price quote yet, I haven't had them look at it -- I know its bad and I know Mazda Corp won't cover it so getting ideas. No biggie. I have more money than i know what to do with <_<
 
#30 ·
Here's the full Mazda List of parts and labor hours from my warranty job. My understanding is that the job runs in the $1200ish range


 
#31 ·
Cool, now I've got a good idea.

I see the chain, VVT but I don't see a tensioner. Im assuming the BOLT. LOCK - is the crank pulley bolt?
 
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