[Michael1961]

My daughter has a 2004 Mazda 6 with about 116,000 miles. She was on the way to a friends house, driving on the interstate, and the oil light started to "flicker". As she was pulling over to the side of the road, the engine died. She left it along the side of the road until I could look at it the next morning.

When I started to check things out the next morning, the first thing I did was to check the oil. It was OK. She had just had the oil changed, so it was clean. (However, the quick lube put 10/40 in it instead of 20/50). The water level in the reservoir looked good, so I tried to start the car.

The car started up OK and I didn't see any problems, so I decided to try and drive it home (40 miles away). While driving, the oil light did not come on and the temperature was sitting right where it was suppose to be. I was starting to think that it might be something minor.

About half way home, I had to climb a large hill. As I started to climb the hill, I started to lose power. As I crested the hill, the oil light started to flicker and as I was pulling over, the engine died. I attempted to restart the engine and, while I was cranking, I noticed that the temperature gauge was reading very high, but was not pegged out. I immediately stopped trying to restart the engine.

I called a tow truck and had the car taken to my mechanic.

The mechanic took a look at it and was unable to get the car started. He said that the variable timing was seriously messed up and appears to have messed up the engine. He said that I needed a new engine.

So my questions:

1. Does this diagnoses sound reasonable?
2. Could the incorrect oil have caused this issue?
3. Could this have been avoided?

I talked to the Mazda dealer and was told that the variable timing going out was a known issue for a car this old. They said that in the past couple of months that looked at 2 cars with similar problems. One car they were able to replace the variable valve timing actuator and the other car, they had to replace the engine.

Any help will be greatly appreciated...I not looking forward to having to replace the engine.

 

[FORZDA 1]

Did you see the CEL come on? When you say "oil light" do you mean the check engine light?

1. The diagnosis sounds suspect until you have proof. Many VVT issues are easily repaired without replacing the engine. Dealer service depts are 95% known idiots.

2. No, the oil should not have caused a problem. Why are you running 20w50?

3. Likely could have been avoided, but need more info.

 

[Michael1961]

Did you see the CEL come on? When you say "oil light" do you mean the check engine light?

1. The diagnosis sounds suspect until you have proof. Many VVT issues are easily repaired without replacing the engine. Dealer service depts are 95% known idiots.

2. No, the oil should not have caused a problem. Why are you running 20w50?

3. Likely could have been avoided, but need more info.

The check engine light has periodically came on in the recent past and the shop has tied it to a vacuum issue in the fuel tank. It has been an on-going problem, but seemed to be a separate issue, but now, with hindsight, might have been trying to tell me of this issue.

The check engine light came on also, but the "oil light" was what was flashing when the issue arose. I'm not sure if the "check engine" light came on when the performance dropped or when the engine died, but I do know the "oil" light flashed before the engine died.

I am running 20w50, because that is what the owner's manual suggested. Besides, printed right on the cap, it says "20w50 only".

The dealer isn't the one giving me the "replace engine" diagnoses.

 

[FORZDA 1]

The check engine light has periodically came on in the recent past and the shop has tied it to a vacuum issue in the fuel tank. It has been an on-going problem, but seemed to be a separate issue, but now, with hindsight, might have been trying to tell me of this issue.

Yes, what was the code?

The check engine light came on also, but the "oil light" was what was flashing when the issue arose. I'm not sure if the "check engine" light came on when the performance dropped or when the engine died, but I do know the "oil" light flashed before the engine died.

The oil light flickering just as the engine dies is a semi-normal situation when the engine is sputtering or otherwise running poorly and dies. The oil pressure drops below trip level while the engine is almost stopped , but "not".

I am running 20w50, because that is what the owner's manual suggested. Besides, printed right on the cap, it says "20w50 only".

Do you have a diesel? There has never been a gasoline car sold in North America that requires 20w50 oil. Sounds like you've been duped and have an oil cap from a motorcycle.....

The dealer isn't the one giving me the "replace engine" diagnoses.

My dealer comment still stands though....

 

[daztd]

Wow, 20W50 oil....that doesn't sound right.
What engine do you have?
Are you the orginal owner of the car?

 

[Michael1961]

Yes, what was the code?

The oil light flickering just as the engine dies is a semi-normal situation when the engine is sputtering or otherwise running poorly and dies. The oil pressure drops below trip level while the engine is almost stopped , but "not".

Do you have a diesel? There has never been a gasoline car sold in North America that requires 20w50 oil. Sounds like you've been duped and have an oil cap from a motorcycle.....

My dealer comment still stands though....

FORZDA, I do appreciate the help, but you are getting me wrapped up in a discussion of semantics and we are not really addressing the issue (no offense).

I apologize if I am unable to provide enough information, but I'm not an automotive expert, but I do know a bit about cars (enough to be dangerous). What I'm trying to find out how the variable timing works and whether this is likely the issue with it or whether my engine could be fried because of it's malfunction. I am pretty certain this is an issue with the variable timing.

I don't know what the code was. My mechanic plugged in his gauge, went to the gas cap, took it off, put it back on and the light went out. When the light came back on a few weeks afterwards, my daughter assumed it was the same issue. It might have been the wrong assumption, but that is another matter.

Yes, I agree that the "oil" light will flicker right before the engine dies in some cases.....as well as all of the light coming on when the engine dies when the key is still in the "start" position. I mentioned it because I know the engine oil is involved with the proper operation of the Variable Timing and thought it might be relevant....but it might not be.

EDIT: You are correct on the oil....I meant 5w20

I agree that some mechanics at dealerships can be idiots, but dealerships don't always have the market cornered in this area. There are some good mechanics and some bad mechanic in shops all over the US.

 

[flipper66]

I don't even think the desiel 6s were speced to 20w50....... least It would suprize me. I would have guess 5w40 or something similar.

given the unit of measure used in the thread is MILES I would think this is a US spec car. None of the US spec cars had a cap that read anything other than 5w20.(maybe you typed wrong?)

Could be any number of things, but the diagnosis sounds way far out of wack. likely a scare tactic to try and talk you into a new motor or trade in.

 

[Michael1961]

I don't even think the desiel 6s were speced to 20w50....... least It would suprize me. I would have guess 5w40 or something similar.

given the unit of measure used in the thread is MILES I would think this is a US spec car. None of the US spec cars had a cap that read anything other than 5w20.(maybe you typed wrong?)

Could be any number of things, but the diagnosis sounds way far out of wack. likely a scare tactic to try and talk you into a new motor or trade in.

I trust my mechanic enough to feel that he isn't trying to shaft me, but I'm also leery enough that he might be pushing a new engine because he is not that versed in the Variable Timing of a Mazda and knows that it could fry an engine.

I'm thinking that the actuator reset the timing to where it was suppose to be after it died the first time, but did not reset the second time and that is why it is now not starting. I don't feel that the car over heated enough to fry the engine before it died the second time.

 

[flipper66]

without any codes and no discription of what is actually wrong with the car other than the no start thing...... it is hard to say.

what oil did they put in other than 5w20?(likely not the problem, but is a start on diagnosising the actual problem)

Fordza is 1000% right though, mazda dealers are mostly idiots. it is cheaper and easier for them to swap an engine than to diagnosis a flat tire. they make the most money on those jobs and spend the least amount of time.

 

[flipper66]

btw, you told us the milage, but motor choice? what did it do before it caused an issue?

any sounds, smells, or other oddities?

what does it do when it doesn't turn over? does it crank at all?

 

[Michael1961]

without any codes and no discription of what is actually wrong with the car other than the no start thing...... it is hard to say.

what oil did they put in other than 5w20?(likely not the problem, but is a start on diagnosising the actual problem)

Fordza is 1000% right though, mazda dealers are mostly idiots. it is cheaper and easier for them to swap an engine than to diagnosis a flat tire. they make the most money on those jobs and spend the least amount of time.

At the moment, my mechanic is unable to get a code because he is unable to get the car running. (Does that make sense?....does the car need to be running to get the code?)

The quick lube put 10w40 in and I suspect that he had been putting 10w40 in for at least the last 3 oil changes.

I'm actually getting more useful info from the dealer that I am from my independent mechanic and am thinking about taking the car to them instead.

 

[Michael1961]

btw, you told us the milage, but motor choice? what did it do before it caused an issue?

any sounds, smells, or other oddities?

what does it do when it doesn't turn over? does it crank at all?

It is a 6-cylinder. Sorry, but I don't have the exact size available at the moment.

When I started it after the daughter broke down, It seem to run great. The daughter said she thought she heard a "clicking" sound that was new coming from the valve cover area. I noticed a faint "warm" smell coming from the heater, but nothing too major.

I didn't notice any problem until I started to climb the hill, and then noticed an extreme lack of power.

It cranks OK, but doesn't "catch" completely. It acts like it is trying to start, but doesn't really get close....kind of like the timing is off.

The reason that I am skeptical about needing a new engine is because it ran good after the daughter broke down and didn't show and signs of a problem until I tried the Hill. I have been around cars enough to feel that I didn't stress it enough to ruin the engine....it is kind of a "gut" feeling.

EDIT: It did not smell "hot" when it died after I drove it and climbed the hill.

 

[FORZDA 1]

At the moment, my mechanic is unable to get a code because he is unable to get the car running. (Does that make sense?....does the car need to be running to get the code?)

No, it makes no sense as the codes are stored in the ECU....

The quick lube put 10w40 in and I suspect that he had been putting 10w40 in for at least the last 3 oil changes.

There is a slim, but unlikely possibility that if the oil (10w40 somewhat and certainly 20w50) is run too long before a change, that it could cause sluggish VVT actuation, but not a "failure".

I'm actually getting more useful info from the dealer that I am from my independent mechanic and am thinking about taking the car to them instead.

Good luck with either you choose. Oh, and I'm not debating sematics, just relavent facts. You may think the points are semantics, but that just indicates your relative ignorance.


You last post sounds like the timing chain tensioner has failed and the chain has slipped a few teeth. Expensive to pay someone to fix it, but not terribly difficult. That would explain the overheating as the cam timing would affect the cylindr temps/pressures.

 

[Michael1961]

No, it makes no sense as the codes are stored in the ECU....

There is a slim, but unlikely possibility that if the oil (10w40 somewhat and certainly 20w50) is run too long before a change, that it could cause sluggish VVT actuation, but not a "failure".

Good luck with either you choose. Oh, and I'm not debating sematics, just relavent facts. You may think the points are semantics, but that just indicates your relative ignorance.

You last post sounds like the timing chain tensioner has failed and the chain has slipped a few teeth. Expensive to pay someone to fix it, but not terribly difficult. That would explain the overheating as the cam timing would affect the cylindr temps/pressures.

LOL, yes, I am very ignorant when it comes to the newer cars. Give me a muscle car any day and I will be happy.

As I said, you are correct, the suggested oil is 5w20 not 20w50. The 20w50 probably came from my muscle car mentality.

Please do not take offense to my earlier comments, it was the frustration showing. I really do appreciate your's and everyone else's help.

 

[flipper66]

At the moment, my mechanic is unable to get a code because he is unable to get the car running. (Does that make sense?....does the car need to be running to get the code?)

The quick lube put 10w40 in and I suspect that he had been putting 10w40 in for at least the last 3 oil changes.

I'm actually getting more useful info from the dealer that I am from my independent mechanic and am thinking about taking the car to them instead.

as long as the car has battery you can retrieve a code. you plug into the port under the steering column and it reads out. No turning the engine on is required...... and in reality is actually less effective to do it with the engine on.

10w40 given the milage shouldn't be that huge a deal. ive been running 5w40 for ages now.....

It is a 6-cylinder. Sorry, but I don't have the exact size available at the moment.

When I started it after the daughter broke down, It seem to run great. The daughter said she thought she heard a "clicking" sound that was new coming from the valve cover area. I noticed a faint "warm" smell coming from the heater, but nothing too major.

I didn't notice any problem until I started to climb the hill, and then noticed an extreme lack of power.

It cranks OK, but doesn't "catch" completely. It acts like it is trying to start, but doesn't really get close....kind of like the timing is off.

The reason that I am skeptical about needing a new engine is because it ran good after the daughter broke down and didn't show and signs of a problem until I tried the Hill. I have been around cars enough to feel that I didn't stress it enough to ruin the engine....it is kind of a "gut" feeling.

EDIT: It did not smell "hot" when it died after I drove it and climbed the hill.

the V6 only came in a 3.0L for this era car.

Sounds like a weak fuel pump issue.

I would want a compression test done before I start spending any money on a new motor and frankly I would want to be there to watch them do the compression test.(not just take someone's word for it)

Given that it restarted and drove, the oil and coolant are good...... I would think you are in the clear very likely for needing a new engine. Could be an ugly vacuum leak in the intake tube, or the PCV hose, but those are just speculation without hearing or seeing the motor.

Could you go down to the shop and use a cellphone or something to record a video of what is going on when they try to start it.

This doesn't sound like a VVT issue, nor do I think I have ever heard of a VVT issue stalling a motor out.

 

[Michael1961]

as long as the car has battery you can retrieve a code. you plug into the port under the steering column and it reads out. No turning the engine on is required...... and in reality is actually less effective to do it with the engine on.

10w40 given the milage shouldn't be that huge a deal. ive been running 5w40 for ages now.....




the V6 only came in a 3.0L for this era car.

Sounds like a weak fuel pump issue.

I would want a compression test done before I start spending any money on a new motor and frankly I would want to be there to watch them do the compression test.(not just take someone's word for it)

Given that it restarted and drove, the oil and coolant are good...... I would think you are in the clear very likely for needing a new engine. Could be an ugly vacuum leak in the intake tube, or the PCV hose, but those are just speculation without hearing or seeing the motor.

Could you go down to the shop and use a cellphone or something to record a video of what is going on when they try to start it.

This doesn't sound like a VVT issue, nor do I think I have ever heard of a VVT issue stalling a motor out.

Hmmm....didn't think of a weak fuel pump and it does kind of fit. Could a weak fuel pump cause lack of power under loads (climbing a hill)?

As I mentioned, I saw no indication of anything being wrong until I started to climb the hill (it is a pretty steep grade). I couldn't get it over 30 mph, but it maintain the 30 mph. When I crested and the load was off is when the engine died, but there was no "bucking" or "sputtering"....it just died.

 

[daztd]

V6 3.0 liters are known for clogged cats. Could this be your issues?

Click---> http://forum.mazda6club.com/3-0l-v6/243122-engine-rebuild-advice-assuming-pre-cat-failure.html

 

[flipper66]

Hmmm....didn't think of a weak fuel pump and it does kind of fit. Could a weak fuel pump cause lack of power under loads (climbing a hill)?

As I mentioned, I saw no indication of anything being wrong until I started to climb the hill (it is a pretty steep grade). I couldn't get it over 30 mph, but it maintain the 30 mph. When I crested and the load was off is when the engine died, but there was no "bucking" or "sputtering"....it just died.

easily heavy load on the pump would mean more current and more load on the pump(more power=need for more fuel). Could have just over heated the pump.....

also on an incline the fuel could shift in the tank. the fuel cools the pump and stops it from over heating. This is why it is said to keep fuel levels higher to keep your fuel pump safe.

Hell, the filter could even just be dirty enough that when you go on the incline the fuel shifts outside the clean filter area and cuts fuel.

totally a theory, but fits the symptoms far better than just about anything else I could come up with. You would notice a ignition or vac issue and given fuel and coolant are proper that seems a little far out.

 

[flipper66]

V6 3.0 liters are known for clogged cats. Could this be your issues?

Click---> http://forum.mazda6club.com/3-0l-v6/243122-engine-rebuild-advice-assuming-pre-cat-failure.html

"known" is farce that has been made popular by fear mongering by the uneducated......

"known" cases and those who claim this why their engine failed is a very wide margin.

Even if 100% of those who claim this(which as your link above proved is not always correct), the # of all of those cases vs how many have been produced would work out to less than 1/2 of 1% of all V6 models built.

yes there have been proven cases, but even in those cases it is hard to say for certain that it wasn't user error or random defective product. Not the standard operating procedure.

 

[Michael1961]

ENGINE DIAGNOSIS 201

THE SAGA CONTINUES:

The Players

Me: A guy that did a lot of work on pre-1980 cars. I quit working on car when they became smarter then me.

Shop #1: A small auto shop with a good reputation in town and has for years. Honest business with maybe 2 mechanics along with the owner. Is well know in the custom business.

Shop #2: A local dealer. Use to be the Mazda dealer, but lost the franchise (political, not because of operational issues). No other Mazda dealer within 100 miles. Still has the only Certified Mazda mechanic in this area, and he is suppose to be very good (according to shop #2). I've had good dealings with them in the past.

The Car: 2004 Mazda 6, 3.0L V6 DOHC 24V, 5-speed, 113,400 miles.

The symptoms: Car starts ok when cold and runs good. As the car warms up, car loses oil pressure, begins a slight knocking that progressively gets worse, eventually, oil light starts to flash and engines shuts down very shortly afterwards (as if the key was turned off...auto safety shut-down from loss of oil pressure?). Even though check engine light was constantly on (has been on for months), there were no codes on computer.

The story: When the car broke down (see first post), I had it towed to shop #1. The owner of this shop initially told me that the VVT (variable valve timing) was "out of whack and more then likely fried the engine". Upon further discussions with shop #1, I have come to the conclusion the this car is not the expertise of this shop. If you want a nice custom job done on an older car, this would be the shop, but I think the Mazda his a little more complicated that this shop normally handles.

I talked to the mechanic at shop #1 that worked on the car....a very older guy that might have even work on the "Model T". He said that the owner just told him the car overheated. He checked the oil...the level was good (maybe even slightly over full), but didn't really seem to remember the color of the oil (important later), but seem to remember it was dark. He said water in reservoir was good.

He started the car, which ran fine and drove it into the bay. He let the car sit and idle to see if it started to overheat. He said that after 5 minutes or so, the car started a soft knock which got progressively worse. He went to turn the car off and the oil light started to flash and the car died on it's own shortly after the oil light started to flash.

I talked to shop #2 and told them what happened and what Shop #1 diagnoses was (might have initially skewed shop #2 diagnoses?). I was told by shop #1 that it sounded like the VVT actuator and that it might have fried the engine, but they have had success in the past of fixing similar issues by changing the actuator.

It sounded like shop #2 had a better grasp on the situation then shop #1, so I had the car taken to shop #2.

The next day shop #2 called me and said that they had bad news...I needed a new engine. They said: "The oil was 1/2 a quart low and was very dirty. It had metal flakes in it, probably from the bearings. The car starts up OK, but as it heats up, it loses oil pressure and dies".

I went to shop #2 and they showed me a sample of the oil. It was very black and thick. Shining a flash light into the oil, I saw 2 or 3 "dust-size" particles that shines (metal flakes).

My issue: The car broke down on March 11th. The oil was just changed on March 3rd (10w30 was put in, not the recommended 5w20) . When the car first broke down, I checked the oil prior to trying to drive it home and the oil was amber-colored and right at the full mark. The oil was so clean that my daughter asked "where is the oil" when I initially checked it. She had to look at it closer to see that there was oil on the stick.

The hill I climbed when the car died on me was only about 10 miles from where the car initially broke down. I really find it hard to believe that the oil went from amber to a thick dark black in only 10 miles of driving.

Any thoughts.

p.s. You will be graded on the detailedness of you answer.

p.s.s. to FORZDA 1: I'm beginning to agree more with you that dealers might be full of idiots.