[Indy MPS6]

Okay, with permission of the organizer of this group buy, I have locked the other post about the Group Buy for the Unichip. You are more than welcome to read it, the other post in the Engine/Drivetrain section and by visiting www.unichip.us.

As you may know, Unichip has tested a Mazda 6s for developing a plug and play unit for the Mazda 6s. The Group Buy is now at the stage where twenty (20) people are needed to make a commitment to get this unit developed as a plug and plug unit. The Group Buy Price is $692.00. An immediate deposit of $100.00 is required. Those are the basic basics of the deal. I will let Derek post the rest of the details on the deal.

Now, here is the really great part. Derek managed to convince Jack Friedman of Unichip to come on here and answer questions you may have. I think this is phenomenal and I hope the members take advantage of this opportunity to ask the right questions so as to feel comfortable in purchasing this chip.

Here are the ground rules for this thread.

1. You are encouraged to ask questions. However, think before you speak. Do you not simply type something in without serious thought.
2. Do not repeat questions already asked. I will delete repetitive posts without notice.
3. Ask the questions with the proper respect. You may offer your concerns but absolutely no flaming. Anything that even resembles flaming will be deleted and I will issue you a warning.

Let's keep this productive.

Thanks, Dave

 

[6DereK6]

Replying to Topic 'UNICHIP GROUP BUY'

Thanks Dave! With any luck we'll be able to get everyones questions answered and get any concernes resolved. Once you've decided you'd like to buy a Plug and play Unichip computer for your Mazda 6s, you can PM me with your name, address, e-mail and phone number; and how you'd like to pay the $100 deposit (paypal prefered). Once we have 20 or more people with a deposit Unichip will proceed with the process of making the units and creating the maps. This will take approx. 30 days. I'm keeping the date open ended for the group buy.

Please go to www.unichip.us and read evrything before asking questions. Here are the answers to two of the first questions sent to Jack.

1.) will software be available for users to tune with a laptop?
> - We do not release the tuning software to end users
> for a couple of reasons. Obviously,
> liability is an issue, but not a significant one on
> this application. The biggest reason
> is "seat of the pants" tuning doesn't produce good
> maps that help cars go quick. Unlike
> some other products, our map sets are very dense and
> do 2-D interpolation which means
> setting the correct data at the correct points
> becomes important. In the full load column
> alone, there is a separate data point for both
> timing and fuel every 23 rpm all the way
> from idle to redline; you can't stabilize the car
> that precisely without a good loading
> dyno, and if you don't stabilize it well you get a
> car which surges and doesn't accelerate
> as well overall. Additionally, without a wideband
> lambda meter and the knowledge of how
> to use it, setting fuel is just a shot in the dark.
2.) can you tell us the settings which you used to tune the test car?
> - The specific settings we use for timing and fuel
> are proprietary to us and we don't
> release them. The A/F ratio we set is a very
> conservative, very safe value which balances
> performance with longevity.
> - I've attached a list of our current dealers for
> anyone considering a custom tune.

Here are the results from the first dyno run: (in Jack's own words)
I think with a bone stock car, the numbers will actually be a bit better... that intake
isn't really helping much. With the short ram, the car was pretty much unchanged below
3,000 rpm but had a 6% average gain above 3,500 rpm with a peak gain of horsepower change of 7.4% (16.6 bhp) and a torque change of 7.6% (13.4 lb-ft). Peak power went from 217.2 to 233.4 bhp and peak torque went from 198.2 lb-ft to 209.0 lb-ft.

the chart can be reviewed here: http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/575298/2

Here's a little bit about how he gets flywheel hp: (in Jack's own words)
The dyno knows its inertial mass and, therefore, how quickly it decelerates when the
load is removed. When the car reaches redline, the tuner puts the clutch in and lets the
car coast down to idle. The dyno measures the difference is deceleration and assumes the difference is due to drive train loss (which it is) and adds the loss
at each rpm point to the measured power at the drive wheels to calculate flywheel numbers. It's pretty accurate and you'll note that the mule was calculated at 217 bhp when Mazda claims 220... even assuming the car was making 220 bhp as it should, that's only a 1.5% deviation, and I'll bet based on other work we've done, the car was only making 217 bhp when it was here.

Here are a list of authorized Unichip installers and tuners, should you ever feel the need to do some custom tuning or have changes made:
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/575298/2

Please ask questions but keep it positive and constructive. If you have no intention of purchasing a Unichip please do not post here, this is for the people who are genuinely interested in participating in this group buy. Thanks to everyone!

 

[04WhiteSix]

Reading Topic: UNICHIP GROUP BUY

When we add a mod or take away a mod, do we send the chip in to be recalibrated? Also is there a lifetime update fee or is it included in the price?

 

[GreenNuggs]

Replying to Topic 'UNICHIP GROUP BUY'

This is about 1 step away from being a standalone if its capabilities are what Jack says. They could offer it with software with it and sell it for 1.2-1.5K, guaranteed.

Thanks for the information. The list of tuners was helpful because I see there are 2 in MA. With that said, my opinion has changed somewhat. To people really interested in this, this is not much different than a normal "chip" would be. In those cases, you would send your ECU or just the chip, they would flash the new program on and send it back to you without really telling you what they did. Its a good option.


My concerns still remain however.

1. For myself, it seems too difficult to have to pay additional money to get it tuned specifically for the car. It seems kinda worth it for the money, but if you look at those other chipped products, they are more in the range of 300-400. Especially considering "The A/F ratio we set is a very conservative, very safe value which balances performance with longevity," this means is we have no idea what they did to it to make that extra "extrapolated" power. Thats the last step I need to be sold on it quite frankly because I feel like I could be getting something that really isn't performing to its best potential without me spending MORE money out of pocket beyond the 700.
2. Note that my car has dynoed as much as 10WHP less than others. Maybe I have a factory weakling, yet the product I'd be getting from Unichip is based on one car and one car only, justifying me spending more money for the product at hand.
3. Might I add I'm suspect about using the flywheel HP numbers. Sounds like a marketing decision to me. I understand the method, but I don't see why adding another error factor into the mix. It doesn't make sense to me.

With all that said, I'm still interested in it. But I gotta say, I don't see me getting the 700 by July.

 

[6DereK6]

Reading Topic: UNICHIP GROUP BUY

Let's make the date for the group buy open ended for now. That's a good point that $692 is a lot to come up with by July if you haven't started saving. That was my judgement call, sorry.

 

[Indy MPS6]

Reading Topic: UNICHIP GROUP BUY

Along Green Nuggs' line of thinking with the A/F, I too am concerned about the A/F ratio being set too conservatively out of the box. The A/F ratio is the culprit for the CEL with Injen intakes (which many of us have). Proper tuning of the A/F is crucial for two purposes, for the most power output and to get rid of the CEL.

 

[badgerman]

Replying to Topic 'UNICHIP GROUP BUY'

Unless I hear some news about diablosport, I'm defintly intersted. I probably won't as diablosport does not appear to be in habit of responding to e-mails

Anyway, I have a few questions about how exaclty the unichip works

1: Does the unichip modify MAF and o2 sensor voltages before they hit the factory PCM, and the factory PCM figures out the injector pulse width, or does the unichip intercept the injector signals and actually modify the pulse width.

2: The factory PCM cross checks all kinds of sensor signals, that is why we get the CEL, because the o2 sensor is reading that the mixture is lean, will the unichip modify these voltages to trick the PCM into thinking that it is running at a factoy fuel mixture?

3: The Injen intake give bogus MAF readings (flows more air than is being metered), how can the unichip compensate for this ? Note, with a REAL tuner like the unichip, bogus MAF voltages can not be a good thing.

 

[Unichip Jack]

Replying to Topic 'UNICHIP GROUP BUY'

I’m Jack from Unichip, and I’m writing here at the forum’s request to answer some questions. I don’t typically enter enthusiast’s forums, not because I have anything to hide or because I’m concerned about “hard” questions, but because I don’t believe manufacturers should jump into sites by and for enthusiasts. That being said, I’m here because you guys invited me; this thread is the only place I’ll go inside your forum and I’ll only be here to answer your questions.
I’ll start by answering what I see in the thread and will do my best to come in once per day and answer new questions.
Everybody’s favorite… cost. I see some cost comparisons with “reflash” products for the Mazda6 and I’ll say it right here, we’ll generally be more expensive than reflash products. A reflash and a piggyback are two completely different approaches to the problem; the computer analogy in the thread is fairly accurate in this respect. What you purchase from us is a computer (literally, plus a PnP harness made with OEM connectors) what you purchase with a reflash kit is essentially a CD to pop into the stock computer. We don’t choose piggybacking because we’re trying to make more money; we do it because it produces a better end product. Piggybacking is often more difficult, but offers superior results in drivability while producing at least as much if not more power and can’t be reflashed by the dealer when you take your car in for service.
Performance… our guarantee says it all, we guarantee no other ECU enhancement product makes more power from a particular car than we do. I haven’t seen anyone else offer the same. We don’t exaggerate claims or tell you we’ll turn your car into a rocket ship by adjusting timing and fuel; we just make the most from the parts you have. There are three things required to make power from an Otto-cycle gas engine – compression, ignition timing, and fuel. With the Unichip, we (or the custom tuner) have complete and very precise control over all three (although on normally aspirated applications like the Mazda6, compression is fixed). We offer extremely dense maps for both timing and fuel (over 53,000 points each) and make the most from whatever the mechanical parts of the engine/intake/exhaust can produce.
White box/black box… we don’t offer an end user tuning interface because without the proper equipment and knowledge to use it, a smooth power curve is very difficult in actuality to achieve. For the Mazda6, we offer separate data points at ~ every 23 rpm and ~ every 0.5% TPS… the data at 95% throttle and 5200 rpm is different than the data at 95% throttle and 5250 rpm which is different than the data at 5250 rpm and 95.5% throttle. Even assuming you have a wide band lambda sensor and a good understanding of air-fuel ratios and ignition timing, you can’t adequately control the engine to set the points without a very good loading dyno. If you don’t set the points correctly, you get engine surges and overall it produces much power. Our goal is seamless operation and the maximum power the engine will produce, not giving guys buttons to push.
Comparisons… the assertion the short ram results are an invalid test for what the Unichip can do by itself is incorrect. It isn’t a valid test of what the Unichip does on a stock vehicle, but it is a completely valid test of what the Unichip does because the only difference between the lines on the dyno sheet is the Unichip. The results will be different with different modifications, but in general the difference between the line (before and after the Unichip) will be very similar. How the short ram compares to a stock configuration is, in reality, irrelevant to us in that we tune the specific hardware configuration.
Map configurations… we routinely build maps for various, specific modifications because those modifications often make a difference. For example, CAI “A” and CAI “B” can produce virtually identical performance numbers but have completely different fuel maps and timing; and the CAI’s map won’t work with CAI B. Typically, we have about ten different configurations for a given vehicle.
Reprogramming… we offer two different options for Unichip reprogramming. The first is to take the car to a qualified Unichip tuner and get it custom tuned on the dyno; Unichip computers are reprogrammable and can be reprogrammed when ever desired. The other option is a core exchange; core exchange fee is $35 + S&H. Typically, a custom dyno tune will run ~ $150; if you want a custom tune, the Unichip is available with a “zero map” for $100 less than retail so the custom tune typically cost about $50 more than a pre-programmed kit. From a performance standpoint, assuming you have a configuration we’ve built a map for, the difference between the pre-programmed kit and a custom tune is indistinguishable to you sitting in the seat.
“What we’re doing…” telling everyone what we’re doing in terms of specific values is pretty meaningless since there are literally over 100,000 specific data points in the maps. We can and do move both timing and fuel very precisely and set each to a safe performance level. Different engines respond best at slightly different values, and we found the Mazda6 responded well with an A/F ratio in the upper 12’s.
Competing manufacture’s claims… We don’t make “hard components” like intakes or exhausts, and we really don’t care what sort of parts a particular vehicle has on it. I also don’t favor any parts over any others. I don’t go with what a particular manufacturer claims for a particular part; if we publish something, it’s the data that came off of the dyno. You can talk for hours about dyno claims and I’ve seen lots of results that showed a nice peak gain from some sort of bolt on part… but what you don’t hear about is the rest of the rpm band where there’s often actually a power loss from that same part. Unless you’re talking about a track car with a correctly set up close-ratio gear box, the thing that makes a car fast is average power not peak power; asking what the “maximum bhp” or “maximum whp” is really doesn’t answer the question.
What a particular manufacturer claims about their parts is between them and their customers, and we don’t want to debate the relative merits of a particular part. That’s for the guys driving the cars and buying the parts to decide. What we do is make the most power that those parts can make. Period. No matter what those parts are. In the case of the short ram, the “before” line is what the short ram does and the “after” is what it does with the Unichip installed. Whether the “before” line is higher or lower than the “stock” line is a completely different question, and has nothing to do with the Unichip; bottom line from our perspective is that the “after” line is above the “before” line for every modification configuration. Whether the CAI (or any other part) is worth the price is for the owner to decide. No matter what parts are on the car, the Unichip makes more power or we wouldn’t bother to sell it for that application.
Hopefully that’s useful information, and thanks for the opportunity to talk about the Unichip, and for your interest in it for the Mazda6. Please let me know if there are other questions I can answer for you.

 

[white6s]

Replying to Topic 'UNICHIP GROUP BUY'

Thank you Jack for taking the time to entertain the boards questions!

I have a few questions regarding the chip. I apologize in advance if these questions seem basic! My knowledge in this area is very limited.

1. Is it safe to assume if the car is tuned with premium (91+ octane) the result would be more HP / TQ? If so what would you expect the increase to be versus standard fuel? My understanding is your current test (dyno) was conducted with regular 87 octane fuel.

2. If the chip is properly tuned to a specific intake, for example Injen which seems to be the most preverlant, there will be both an increase in HP / TQ and also the cel light will be eliiminated. There will not be a continuous need for resets, etc?

3. For those of us with automatics I thought I had read where your product may be able to control shift points, true or false? If true is this something you will be exploring?

Again, thank you!

 

[SteelyGrey]

Reading Topic: UNICHIP GROUP BUY

Thanks Jack!

1) If this Group Buy happens, how many Map configurations do you intend to provide for us?

i.e. 1 for atx, 1 for mtx, 1 for injen atx, 1 for injen mtx, etc.

2) Would you need a donor car(s) with those specific configurations in order to provide those configurations? If not how would you go about it?

3) Would an after market exhaust even have enough of an effect that it would need to be taken into consideration with designing the Map configurations?

 

[Monk]

Replying to Topic 'UNICHIP GROUP BUY'

Jack,

First, let me say thank for offering to answer our questions directly on the forum.

Here are the questions that I compiled while reading through the Unichip website and your previous response. I apologize if these have been answered elsewhere. I tried very hard to avoid duplication. You have been quite generous to offer to answer questions directly on our forum, and I do not want to abuse that offer.

1. Your website mentions two variants of the product line, one with a PnP harness, and one that must be hard spliced into the factory harness by a licensed reseller. Your previous response implies that the Mazda6 product would be the PnP variant. I simply wanted to confirm that this was indeed the case.

2. Do you intend to modify any other factory ECU settings other than air/fuel/timing (speed limiter, rev limiter, and electric cooling fan cycle, for example)?

3. The website mentions availability of a dual ignition map with toggle switch to select between them. However, I only remember seeing a single dyno, reportedly at 87 octane. Will the Mazda6 product come with dual, selectable ignition maps, or are we discussing a single map variant?

4. What specific map configurations do you expect to offer with the Mazda6 product? I am assuming that the one for the dyno we have seen will be one (modified map at 87 octane). Will there also be an available map optimized for 91 or 93 octane? Are there any other maps that you expect to offer?

5. If the user later decides to change what maps are in the unichip, whether simply to adjust target octane or to compensate for a specific CAI (to be discussed later), and assuming that the maps selected are one of the ‘typical ten’ that you mention for a given vehicle, what is the related cost to the unichip owner? Does this cost vary based on whether the user is updating one or both maps on the unichip (assuming we have the dual-map functionality)?

6. What happens if Mazda decided to change the air/fuel/timing map on the ECU with a future software upgrade? If I understand correctly, such a change would require the unichip to be retuned to compensate for the stock map changes. I understand that such changes are rare, but should one occur would unichip offer to update the maps for free on deployed systems, or would the buyer be charged the standard fee for having a new map loaded onto the unichip?

7. Finally, here is the question regarding the dreaded Injen CEL. I mention this one separately because it is a rather unique edge case that I’m not sure you have full details on. Essentially, the combination of the stock MAF and Injen intake combine to induce a slightly lean condition, at least from the ECU’s perspective. The favored theory is that the MAF is miscalculating the true quantity of air entering the engine because the diameter of the inlet pipe at the MAF has changed. Anyway, the A/F ratio is arguably safe, but it has a tendency to throw a CEL. The perception among some members is that your product will get rid of their CEL. However, I doubt that will happen unless you generate a map specific to that CAI, since the CAI would continue to allow more air flow than the MAF reports to the ECU. Will there be a specific map configuration to ‘fix’ the problem that some members are experiencing with the Injen intake?

 

[Unichip Jack]

Replying to Topic 'UNICHIP GROUP BUY'

Good afternoon. After I wrote my answers, I discoverd the site doesn't support embeded charts, so here's a link to them.

http://www.unichip.us/Dynocharts/Mazda6%20response.pdf

Please let me know if you have any additional questions.

Cheers,
Jack

 

[falcontx]

Reading Topic: UNICHIP GROUP BUY

I understand that this thread is meant to be strictly for questions directly related to the Unichip, but since you brought it up....

You said, "In case you're wondering, running a Mazda 6 all the way to redline between shifts actually slows down your acceleration"

So my question is, do you happen to know what the optimal shift point would be?

And by the way, thank you for all of the great information you have provided thus far.

 

[white6s]

Replying to Topic 'UNICHIP GROUP BUY'

Once again I really appreciate your time and responses to my questions!!

I am a fairly short distance from Portland and my car is a V6 automatic. If it is needed for testing I can have it there nearly anytime you chose. 6Derek6 has my phone numbers and contact infomation.

Thanks again for your help! Also thanks to 6Derek6 for all of your work on this GB!

 

[Milliamp]

Reading Topic: UNICHIP GROUP BUY

falcontx someone did dynos and graphed out shift points over at mazda6tech.com

I am sure maybe someone else can give you tyhe link but I wrote down some of the shift points.

1 - 2nd 7000
2 - 3rd 7000
3 - 4th 6000
4 - 5th 6000

I believe the car is actually governed at 7000 though, so you may want to shift around 6800 for 1-2 and 2-3.

 

[falcontx]

Reading Topic: UNICHIP GROUP BUY

Hmm. Well, that basically negates what he just said. Redline on the 6 is 6500 and he's saying that running up to that point slows acceleration, so obviously someone has miscalculated.

 

[Unichip Jack]

Replying to Topic 'UNICHIP GROUP BUY'

Sorry I didn’t get a chance to answer these yesterday. I haven’t looked at all at the gearing in the Mazda6 transmission, but I can tell you how to figure out where you should shift. Take a look at the dyno sheet and find peak Torque (forget bhp, torque is the only thing which effects acceleration, bhp is just a number from a formula used to sell cars). Peak Torque is where the car accelerates the quickest so you want to stay as close to that point as possible.
To figure out where to shift, you must figure out the rpm drop at each shift… they’re probably all slightly different, but for argument’s sake, let’s assume the rpm changes 800 rpm at each. Assuming the torque curve is essentially symmetric in the vicinity of peak torque, you ideally would shift at peak + 400 rpm and drop to peak – 400 rpm each time.
Obviously, you have to modify that if the curve isn’t symmetric or if (for example) that means you’re shifting at 56 mph while trying to get the best 0-60 time (since you’d lose more time in the shift than by continuing past peak torque in the lower gear).
Note from the Mazda6 dyno chart at the link below that the engine’s peak torque is around 5200 rpm, so running all the way to redline isn’t the quickest way in general to accelerate the car. With the Unichip on the short-ram car we did, your goal would be to stay within ~ 4600 rpm – 5700 rpm which is all above 205 lb-ft. With the short ram, but without the Unichip, the range is a bit tighter and looks like 4700 rpm – 5700 rpm which is all above 195 lb-ft. If your gear box doesn’t produce that large of a gear change, I’d pull the points in equally from both sides.
Thanks for the offer of the automatic car; we’d like to look at the car to see if it will use the same PnP harness and what we can do with the transmission. Please give me a call at toll free at 866.643.7400 and we can get a plan going.

Cheers

link

http://www.unichip.us/Dynocharts/Mazda6%20-%20CAI.pdf

 

[Sigma]

Reading Topic: Reading Topic: UNICHIP GROUP BUY

I don't see how you're reaching that conclusion, Jack.

The Torque plot of the 6s looks like this:

You are consistently generating more lb-ft of torque in the 6500-7000rpm range in the previous gear than you will in the next gear if you shift.

For example, if I shifted at roughly 5250RPM in 2nd, I would be leaving 2nd at roughly 1100lb-ft of torque and going into 3rd that is giving me 900 lb-ft of torque.

In first, the difference is even more staggering -- Leaving 1st at 1950 lb-ft of torque at 5250rpm to go into 2nd @ only 1150 lb-ft.

 

[masteryang]

Replying to Topic 'UNICHIP GROUP BUY'

Hi Guys, I know most of you are still debating whether or not to get a Unichip. I'm the guy who took the car in for prototyping this chip, I know most of you think the gain isn't what everyone was expected, however, with just 6% of torque, once you drive it you can definitely feel the gain. The reason why my AEM intake didn't perform as it suppose to on the dyno is because I didn't remove the airbox behind the bumper, and that restrict a lot of airflow going through to the Intake. And another thing is, when dynoed I put in 87 octane fuel, but once i put in premium gas, i will drive around and let you guys know how it perform. Personally, I think this chip is worthwhile to get, because with the unichip itself installed on mazda 6 it can gain more than intake and exhaust combine, however with unichip, intake, and exhaust system combine i'm sure it will gain a lot more.

 

[Indy MPS6]

Reading Topic: Reading Topic: UNICHIP GROUP BUY

Thanks for the input, Anthony! Now guys, be nice to him. He's not the expert, Jack is.