[dougefresh_]

Here was my past experience:

1. I was using a boost-based map like Forzda (jack up all three load tables, and limit boost w/ the boost targets table). For some reason, the new Perrin Pro was over-boosting a LOT with the values Forzda was using, despite similar mods. And when I say over-boosting, I mean like this:

2. With 4 map cuts tweaking wgdc and boost dynamics tables, I had boost almost dead on. Then my car shit the bed for 3 monts

3. Went back to load based tuning, and I copied the wgdc values from my boost based map, as prevent the over-boosting above. The above vid was with the STOCK wgdc that Forzda was using, and hitting his 20 PSI perfect. I'm not sure if it was due to the different model Perrin's, or if my first one was faulty somehow.

4. So, my wgdc values I copied from the boost-based map where basically a 15% reduction from 3,500 rpms up at higher load values. NOW, with those values pasted into the load based map, I'm only hitting 15-17 PSI. This suggest a leak, or a problem with the previous Perrin ebcs.w

5. I'm about to copy in the STOCK wgdc tables into my load based map, and see how boost repsonds, and more importanly, my calc load.

I'm making those changes tonight and going away for the day tomorrow with the gf. Gonna flash the map now with some tweaks, and it will be broken in by tomorrow on the way home. I'll take some WOT logs on the way back and post them asap. I have my load/gear increased a bit over the stage 2 + fmic map values, so I should be hitting at least 18, if not 19-20 PSI... assuming I have no leaks!! Though I did do a pressure test recently.

As always, I welcome your input and advice.

 

[dougefresh_]

Okay, so here are the map changes I made tonight.

1. Calibrated maf tables A,B
2. Put STOCK wgdc tables in
3. Used "safe" Boost Dynamics table values- This table is used to apply a multiplier (to increase or decrease) the wgdc values (as a % increase or reduction in wgdc). I give a generous reduction for over-boost situations, but very conservative values for under-boost (i.e. I don't let it increase the wgdc tables by much)
4. I'm using the stage 2+ fmic map, but I upped the load/gear values in all gears by 5% across the board
5. I increased the Boost Dynamics table from 75% PPS up across the board by 5%, which makes for a 20 PSI target boost under WOT. I did this just so it wouldn't limit my boost with the higher load/gear values.
6. Some other crap I use in my maps (stagger OL/PT fuel tables to 1% richer for a smoother CL/OL tranisition, CL exit loop delays cut in half, LC + FFS set, and idle bumped to 950 rpms.

That's a lot of changes, but they're relative minor tweaks. The biggest to keep an eye on is how boost responds with all the changes. As such, I plan on easing into wot for a bit before doing full WOT logs. Hope that wasn't TMI, but I thought I'd be thorough about my map, and my stock mapping wgdc table values I'm using as a baseline.

I'm thinking it will either go great, or I'll be over-boosting a bit. I may tone this map down a bit, depending on the boost, and save the 20-22 PSI map for meth. We'll see how it goes tomorrow

 

[laxplayermjd]

thanks thats some good info. So you managed to get your inspection eh? now if these stock values work it would be great. although it wouldnt make much sense as perrin says just start with lowering them all by 50% correct?

 

[dougefresh_]

thanks thats some good info. So you managed to get your inspection eh? now if these stock values work it would be great. although it wouldnt make much sense as perrin says just start with lowering them all by 50% correct?

Yeah, the inspection was NP. I only failed before because I reset the ECU when I was fixing the upper radiator hose, so the emissions test kept reading "system not ready." You need to put like 50 miles on her after an ECU reset. You can cut a map w/ wgdc at 50%, but you're probably going to be at spring pressure, lol. Link me to where it says that, because that doesn't sound right.

I'm pissed bc my AP won't load the new maps I cut. I updated my firmware, etc, etc.. The maps are on there, but greyed out so I can't select them. It sucks because we went for a 100 mile drive this afternoon, and that would've broke the map in nice so I could take some wot runs, etc.

I just uninstalled all my AP software, and reinstalled it. I don't think it's going to work, but I'll give it a try. So sick of the AP being a finicky little bitch.

 

[laxplayermjd]

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/PERRIN/documents/instructions/universal/asmtac725.pdf


at the bottom for tuning tips, for rough starting point reduce wgdc by half.
it says 30% for utec users but idk what that is haha

i suppose that would be the safest way possible. like you said itd seem to make it run spring.

 

[dougefresh_]

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/PERRIN/documents/instructions/universal/asmtac725.pdf


at the bottom for tuning tips, for rough starting point reduce wgdc by half.
it says 30% for utec users but idk what that is haha

i suppose that would be the safest way possible. like you said itd seem to make it run spring.

Thanks for the link... that is a new doc with the Perrin Pro afaik. 1/2 seems absurd... maybe if you're running stock boost ~15 PSI? I dunno. I want to run 18-19 on the non-meth map, but I also want to avoid the huge over-boost I was getting before. I'm lazy so after I calibrate the maf and get it dead on, I"m not breaking my maps in more than 5 miles tops, lol. Then I can do a few wot runs and tweak the wgdc some more. I found that when I had my LTFT's at zero everywhere except one breakpoint (1.6 there), I could break in maps super-fast. I'm going do that this time, because it may take several map cuts, and I don't want to be fucking around. The biggest change for me is that I'm back to load tuning, whereas I was tuning for boost before. BTW...I had to email Cobb for a new ATR download, so I won't have it until tomorrow night. I'll take the car for a spin though to see how it boosts.

 

[FORZDA 1]

The WGDC is directly related to the turbo boost/rpm and the WGA diaphram size and spring rate. If you're running the OEM turbo, then I recommend staying with the OEM WGDC table and reduce the 5k + values to ~25% and go from there. My dyno with the K04 showed th eboost oscilating in that range. The OEM value of 41% at 5500 is IMO, to make sure the boost is shut down.

I'm still going to tune with boost as I'm working on my own "special" project. That said, the OEM WGDC is setup for the K04 bleed mode which is a slow reacting setup as the K04 is screaming along at max rpms pretty much all the time.

In my experiments (so far) with the BNR WGA, it looks like it will work best with a relatively flat WGDC curve. I set up the baseline by editing the entire active section of the WGDC table to the 50% value. Then dropped the 2k range by 10%, the 2250 range by 20% and the 2500 up by 50%. That basically gives a 25% starting value for the spooled up turbo. I need to spend some time to tweak it from there.

 

[laxplayermjd]

i recieved that document with my perrin. So you guys suggest that when i put the perrin on in interrupt just go with stock wgdc values? just change them past 5k?
I suppose i should go with the values steve has came up with for me, so far with completely stock setup with the cai and tip im not spiking and boost is prettier linear now. However Not sure what these values are compared to stock.

 

[dougefresh_]

The WGDC is directly related to the turbo boost/rpm and the WGA diaphram size and spring rate. If you're running the OEM turbo, then I recommend staying with the OEM WGDC table and reduce the 5k + values to ~25% and go from there. My dyno with the K04 showed th eboost oscilating in that range. The OEM value of 41% at 5500 is IMO, to make sure the boost is shut down.

In my experiments (so far) with the BNR WGA, it looks like it will work best with a relatively flat WGDC curve. I set up the baseline by editing the entire active section of the WGDC table to the 50% value. Then dropped the 2k range by 10%, the 2250 range by 20% and the 2500 up by 50%. That basically gives a 25% starting value for the spooled up turbo. I need to spend some time to tweak it from there.

Joe, the major difference here is that you were boost based on the K04, and although I was as well, my wgdc was WAAAYY off (overboosting). I don't know if that was a faulty Perrin, or our slightly different set ups or what. I'm almost positive my current "unavailable" map is the one with wgdc reduced by 15% from 75% PPS @ 3,500 rpms up. That hit 20 PSI almost perfectly when I was boost based.... again, I'm only hitting 15-17 PSI now with that map. I'm going to try running the stock values as a baseline, and just make sure it's not over-boosting.

It makes sense that you had to jack up your wgdc values with the BNR S3. We just need to be careful to keep in mind that boost-based vs. load based maps can be VERY different!! You should tune that thing to load based so people can rape your tune from you, lol.

i recieved that document with my perrin. So you guys suggest that when i put the perrin on in interrupt just go with stock wgdc values? just change them past 5k?
I suppose i should go with the values steve has came up with for me, so far with completely stock setup with the cai and tip im not spiking and boost is prettier linear now. However Not sure what these values are compared to stock.

I don't know what to suggest... however, I'll have some advice for you when I get the ATR download, and see how it goes. Also, I'd take everything with a grain of salt, only because you're not using the AP and ATR. I couldn't tell you the first thing about the Standback or any of that stuff. I'm ASSUMING the tables are the same, but I have no clue how your tuning deviced tapped those tables, etc... As long as I get the ATR software download tomorrow, I'll def do a few wot runs just to see how the stocker wgdc hold up.

 

[FORZDA 1]

....It makes sense that you had to jack up your wgdc values with the BNR S3.

Doogie, you're not reading my latest posts correctly. The BNR requires much LESS WGDC than the OEM. My first runs with the new EBCS hoses showed huge boost spikes and oscillations with OEM values. I did run the WGDC up higher in my K04 map trying to get everything the little turbo had, and got it.

We just need to be careful to keep in mind that boost-based vs. load based maps can be VERY different!! You should tune that thing to load based so people can rape your tune from you, lol.

Yep, they will be different, but the concepts are identical. I'll not go back to OEM type Load-based tuning as the engine power is obtained from the boost/timing/AFR and the Abs Load value is simply an indicator of the "power" produced. It is REALLY skewed in the big power cars as the MAF and MAP input values are altered by the piggyback (CPE SB), so the calc Load in the ECU is what it is, and irrelavent.....

What I WILL have is a very good POWER(!) map strategy, regardless of turbo used and not so much a "reliability" map...

 

[dougefresh_]

Doogie, you're not reading my latest posts correctly. The BNR requires much LESS WGDC than the OEM. My first runs with the new EBCS hoses showed huge boost spikes and oscillations with OEM values. I did run the WGDC up higher in my K04 map trying to get everything the little turbo had, and got it.

I forget that your spring pressure is higher. What is it set to exactly? I know it's adjustable, but is there anyway to know what it's set at? Other than disconnecting the ebcs and doing some logs of course? Not that that is a chore, but just curious if there were markings or something.

 

[dougefresh_]

Okay, so the meth is off and won't be on for a few weeks. Time to get this thing tuned without meth, which I need to do first anyways.

I flashed the stage 2 + fmic with load/gear upped 5% in each gear. That should hit around 19-20PSI. Just to be on the safe side, I reduced my wgdc values by 8% (from the stock values) from 75% PPS and 3,500 rpms up. Looks like I'm holding around 17-18 PSI with that set up. The attached logs are ugly as hell and my afrs are off a bit. They look pretty good until around 6K where they go rich. An maf cal of the upper volatages should fix that. However, I didn't let the map break in at all. I was just trying to see if the meth was spraying, which it is not. I need a new controller.

I don't understand why my dip in AFRs drift up. This used to happen to me, but now I always stagger my OL/Part Throttle (No KR) tables from .25% to .75% richer at higher rpms/loads. I'm thinking it's just because I didn't let the map break in, and the ECU wants to punch me in the face. I'm going to try the same map, but with the stock wgdc values, break the map in, and see how things look.

Also, I'm expecting my MAF g/s to increase a bit. It used to be at 277g/s (I forget now), but it's currently maxing at 270 g/s. That's just because the boost is a little lower. We'll see what happens later today.

 

[dougefresh_]

Flashed the new map w/ stock wgdc tables. Hasn't fully broken in yet, but I took a quick 2nd WOT pull on my way home for the hell of it. I forgot to mention that I have my boost targets table set to 20.1 PSI across the board at wot. I also have the Boost Dynamics table set up very conservatively.. i.e. pull a large % of wgdc in case of over-boost, but only allow a modest increase if there is underboost. Anyways, boost looked good, but I have to break in the map, and get some 3rd/4th gear pulls in. Here's the graph:

Excel file of log attached. It will be interesting to see if the Boost Targets and Boost Dynamics table keep boost in check in 3rd or 4th. I'm happy that it's pretty damn close as is.

 

[FORZDA 1]

Doogie, did you get the WGDC logged?

 

[laxplayermjd]

looking good so far, so really it doesnt seem to need much a diveation from the stock values, atleast with the stock ko4 setup

 

[dougefresh_]

Doogie, did you get the WGDC logged?

Not with the stock wgdc values... I just used one of the 3 DH log configurations that were on there. In the prior post, wgdc is logged and was set to 8% less than stock from 75%PPS & 3,500 rpms up. I'll take some proper logs as soon as I get the map broken in.

I'm really hoping using your boost targets method while tuning load/gear with the safety cushion of my BD table will keep boost nice. I, however, need to start tracking calc load and see how it all plays out. I don't want to do too much, because the DP and mani go in Friday.

looking good so far, so really it doesnt seem to need much a diveation from the stock values, atleast with the stock ko4 setup

Yup. However, my back-pressure should be reduced by quite a bit w/ the DP/Mani, so it will be interesting to see if the stock wgdc + BD + Boost Targets keeps boost about the same. It (hopefully) should, really, if I don't increase load at all. I'll def take a bunch of logs before the DP/Mani, and then run the exact same map and see what happens. I'm not going to calibrate the maf or anything, and see what happens. It may be very revealing . The maf will be close enough after the DP/Mani such that it won't matter (it'll def be within 5-7% so it's fine). I don't want adjusting the maf to affect load and therefore boost, and skew what's going on with the wgdc.

 

[dougefresh_]

hmm... I was thinking this over, and I'm going to have to cut a new map with lower than stock wgdc. The DP in Mani go in on Friday, and I'm not sure how much that will reduce back pressure. Potentially enough for me to over-boost by a lot, and since I'm pushing near 20 PSI with the stock values, I'm going to back off by at least 10% from TPS 75%+ and 3,500 rpms+. The meth isn't running yet as I need a new controller, and I'd rather err on the side of caution than over-boost up a storm.

Any one know how much of a reduction in back pressure I'll get from a DNP Mani + Catted DP to replace the stocker DP and 3" TP? I don't know... 10% wgdc reduction enough? :/

 

[laxplayermjd]

hmmm im not sure but i may reduce it a little bit more than that, make sure to keep the correction real aggreasive on the boost dynamics table. I think its quite a bit reduction in back pressure.

have you thought if you may need a stiffer wga after those mods?

Since you have some experience tuning via load and via boost. what are you opinions on each way?

 

[dougefresh_]

hmmm im not sure but i may reduce it a little bit more than that, make sure to keep the correction real aggreasive on the boost dynamics table. I think its quite a bit reduction in back pressure.

have you thought if you may need a stiffer wga after those mods?

Since you have some experience tuning via load and via boost. what are you opinions on each way?

Yeah, I may as well cut it back by 20-25% just to be safe. My BD table is pretty aggressive 12%, 30%, 40% reduction in wgdc for a 1, 3, and 5 PSI over-boost, respectivetly. In comparison, the stock & OTS are only 1%, 10%, and 15% reductions. I may also make my load dynamics table 'safer' as well. I could go with a stiffer wga, but I want the stock 10 PSI spring because of the meth + bcs failsafe. A 17 PSI spring would be great, but when the meth failed, the BCS would leave me at 17 PSI, so I'm going to stick with the stocker.

As for boost tuning... I hardly had any experience. Forzda and I were similarly bolted, and I was over-boosting up a storm with the boost based maps. I had boost almost dialed in just right w 4 map cuts, and I was tuning my ebcs when my fuel pump shit the bed, and my car was down for months. So, I can't really say much about boost based tuning, or the results. I choose to go back to load tuning when the car came back to life, as I've just had a lot more experience with it, and am more comfortable with it.

I was thinking the other day how boost is typically low in 1st gear. I'll hit/hold 18-20 PSI in 2nd gear upwards, but first is so short, that it's hard to hit the boost targets. I was thinking of upping load in first gear to compensate. I would prefer to just increase the wgdc for first gear only, but there is no option for that. There's the boost comps tables that I could use for 1st but I've heard they don't do much.

That's the least of my concerns. I have to the maf cal'd after the dp/mani, and I want that dead on throughout the maf, especially the wot afrs. I haven't had to tune those before, and currently my wot afrs are pretty good. however, I have to get that shit down pat, as I'm going to lean out my wot afrs to 12.2ish while running meth. I can't wait to get her tuned without meth, and then start running the juice. I'm tempted to run 100% meth as a fuel, but I need to see how my BATS/KR are doing. I'm started w/ the 50/50 mix for the w/m cooling/power to start. Man I sooo psyched that I'll be fully bolted with meth on Friday! Well, no meth until I get a new controller. I'll be putting my 3" SU TP up for sale on Friday (used 8 months and maybe 1,500 miles). I'm going to try to sell the controller I have for whatever I can get as it will work fine for people who are not running failsafes. I could use the loot to put towards tires/new controller.

 

[dougefresh_]

Can't wait for tomorrow!

Alright, here's what I went with:

1. Reduced wgdc by 10% from 3,000 rpms to redline @ TPS 68.75-100%
2. Reduced wgdc by 10% further (so 19% less total) from 3,000rpms to redline @ TPS 81.25-100.

I wasn't sure how to approach this, and I wanted to try to stagger it somewhat. I wanted to see how it was going, which is why I multiplied the large block by 0.9, and then multiplied the upper portion in #2 by 0.9 again. It's a far cry from a proper tune for the ebcs, but I need to start somewhere. Plus, after all the shenanigans I've had to deal with, it's much better to play it safe. Thanks again Lax for suggesting that . If it's too much of a reduction, I'll just be boosting real low, which is better than the alternative. It seems odd to reduce wgdc in big blocks like I did (and have in the past... literally one big block reduced), but boost seems to react well to that. I guess I'll worry about the fine tuning after I break in the new map, and see how it goes tomorrow.

We should take bets on how much (little) boost I'll make with the new set up and those wgdc values, knowing that the stock values have her peaking at 19.5 PSI with the current set up. I'm guessing 16-17 max PSI with the DP/Mani & the above wgdc values.

PS.... My 3" SU TP with approx 2K miles, a new Labonte VC-25 controller (not compatible with failsafes), and a PTP spacer (w/ less than 500 miles) will be going up for sale this weekend .