Alky is a great solution for the MS6 since the intercooler is way to small and always heatsoaked. We use it all the time on Evos, Subys and DSM's. I was wondering when someone would step up and install it on a MS6. Good Job. The real gains will come once you have some more mods, higher boost and something to tune with.
Snow Water/meth Injection Installed On Speed6!
Well, 2 days ago I got the AEM intake on, easy......quick......and effective!
Today, well.......we did the Snow Performance Water/Meth injection and I am pushing 50/50 meth. WOW! Its unreal! Add 30 or so HP to this car and things begin to get a bit more....well...... interesting. This thing is getting down-right violent!
I am running the pump at the full 150 PSI, activating at 6PSI and full on at 15PSI.
All I can say, is if your in the Pittsburgh area, and your on the fence about doing this mod......come on over some time and we can take a ride! Its like superman just ripped his street clothes off and is now taking to the air! Thru the gears it pulls so hard its nuts. On a hard start with TC off I had it spinning all 4 (But after that four gear shot I smelled clutch burning.....) and it was slamming thru gears at a scary and alarming rate. The 0-80 MPH times are drastically faster. I will try to quantify the change with our G-tech accelerometer once I get time. Its still busy time in the shop, so I will wait until the end of October to get to that.
Crazy. Fun. Exciting. Adrenaline. Muscle. Power. I cant really describe it, you would have feel it!
I took pictures of the install, the bracket I made for the coolant bottle, removing the intercooler and allum intake tube going to the T-body, the MAP line, the pump and bottle positions....everything.
The stock Intercooler is a joke, mounted flat on the engine with no place for air to really go... now it does not matter! When I get the boost going, the water/meth starts flowing!
From wwwSnowPerformance.net
The Boost Cooler® is Snow Performance’s latest generation water/methanol injection system. The primary function of water/methanol injection is to provide “chemical intercooling”.
In gasoline engines, as with any intercooler, this suppresses detonation so more power producing boost and timing can be utilized. Water, with its high latent heat of vaporization cools the intake charge and combustion. Methanol cools the charge and combustion but also acts like an extremely high octane fuel (some researchers claim as high as 120 octane) as well as adding more oxygen to combustion.
A brief History:
Water injection was evaluated scientifically in the 1930’s by H. Ricardo who demonstrated that one can basically double the power output of an engine using water/methanol. The first widespread use was during WWII on supercharged and turbocharged aircraft. In 1942, the German Luftwaffe increased the horsepower of the Focke-Wulf 190D-9 fighter aircraft from 1776HP to 2240HP using 50/50% water/methanol injection. The allies soon followed by fitting the P51 Mustang and other high performance aircraft with water/methanol injection. Following the war, the turboprop aircraft industry used water/methanol injection and called it the “automatic power reserve system (APR)” for use in hot or high altitude take off. It surfaced again in the 60’s when GM used a system on the OEM turbo Corvair. It was used effectively in Formula 1 before being banned for adding too much power.
The latest competitive use is in World Rally Racing (WRC) where virtually all teams use it in some form and in diesel truck/tractor pulling competition. It is important to note that in the fall of 2004, the long standing world record in the quarter mile for diesels was broken twice (now 7.98 sec) by two different vehicles; both using the Boost Cooler® water/methanol injection system by Snow Performance.
Today, well.......we did the Snow Performance Water/Meth injection and I am pushing 50/50 meth. WOW! Its unreal! Add 30 or so HP to this car and things begin to get a bit more....well...... interesting. This thing is getting down-right violent!
I am running the pump at the full 150 PSI, activating at 6PSI and full on at 15PSI.
All I can say, is if your in the Pittsburgh area, and your on the fence about doing this mod......come on over some time and we can take a ride! Its like superman just ripped his street clothes off and is now taking to the air! Thru the gears it pulls so hard its nuts. On a hard start with TC off I had it spinning all 4 (But after that four gear shot I smelled clutch burning.....) and it was slamming thru gears at a scary and alarming rate. The 0-80 MPH times are drastically faster. I will try to quantify the change with our G-tech accelerometer once I get time. Its still busy time in the shop, so I will wait until the end of October to get to that.
Crazy. Fun. Exciting. Adrenaline. Muscle. Power. I cant really describe it, you would have feel it!
I took pictures of the install, the bracket I made for the coolant bottle, removing the intercooler and allum intake tube going to the T-body, the MAP line, the pump and bottle positions....everything.
The stock Intercooler is a joke, mounted flat on the engine with no place for air to really go... now it does not matter! When I get the boost going, the water/meth starts flowing!
From wwwSnowPerformance.net
The Boost Cooler® is Snow Performance’s latest generation water/methanol injection system. The primary function of water/methanol injection is to provide “chemical intercooling”.
In gasoline engines, as with any intercooler, this suppresses detonation so more power producing boost and timing can be utilized. Water, with its high latent heat of vaporization cools the intake charge and combustion. Methanol cools the charge and combustion but also acts like an extremely high octane fuel (some researchers claim as high as 120 octane) as well as adding more oxygen to combustion.
A brief History:
Water injection was evaluated scientifically in the 1930’s by H. Ricardo who demonstrated that one can basically double the power output of an engine using water/methanol. The first widespread use was during WWII on supercharged and turbocharged aircraft. In 1942, the German Luftwaffe increased the horsepower of the Focke-Wulf 190D-9 fighter aircraft from 1776HP to 2240HP using 50/50% water/methanol injection. The allies soon followed by fitting the P51 Mustang and other high performance aircraft with water/methanol injection. Following the war, the turboprop aircraft industry used water/methanol injection and called it the “automatic power reserve system (APR)” for use in hot or high altitude take off. It surfaced again in the 60’s when GM used a system on the OEM turbo Corvair. It was used effectively in Formula 1 before being banned for adding too much power.
The latest competitive use is in World Rally Racing (WRC) where virtually all teams use it in some form and in diesel truck/tractor pulling competition. It is important to note that in the fall of 2004, the long standing world record in the quarter mile for diesels was broken twice (now 7.98 sec) by two different vehicles; both using the Boost Cooler® water/methanol injection system by Snow Performance.
21 - 40 of 59 Posts
I did call and talk with CP-E about the OEM fuel/air ratio, and they described it to me as "pig rich" and problematic for making power. If I am running leaner than stock (I have no dobt I am) I dont think it is overly lean. I am running the smallest jet snow has, rated for under 300hp engines, and when I get back to Pennsylvania I will be pulling it back out of the shop to start cutting pump pressure. I may also add a AEM AF meter and probe in the downpipe to let me see what we have going on. I am not out to blow the engine, but if blowing the engine is a part of the learning process......so be it! I have blown MUCH more expensive engines, and you regroup and try again. I just blew apart a 521 Ford at 8500 RPM's......can you say 2 pistons on the track! I lost about 20 grand on that run. It will be back together for next season. This car is intended to be fun. I want to race it, make power, have a good time, and maybe get a new understanding of this tuner car thing.
I hope to expand my business into this tuner car direction, but before I try to market any products and talk to any folks, I have to play the game, walk a bit of the walk, and know how to talk the talk. I dont like the guy that calls me to know more than I do! So, here I am, trying to learn from you guys some of the background to assist me in getting started on a new adventure! Tuner cars.....
I love the Speed 6 because rather than starting with trash and trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, I am just polishing a gem. The car already handles well, runs well, and looks clean. All I have to do is finish what Mazda started and make it a true performance car!
I hope to expand my business into this tuner car direction, but before I try to market any products and talk to any folks, I have to play the game, walk a bit of the walk, and know how to talk the talk. I dont like the guy that calls me to know more than I do! So, here I am, trying to learn from you guys some of the background to assist me in getting started on a new adventure! Tuner cars.....
I love the Speed 6 because rather than starting with trash and trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, I am just polishing a gem. The car already handles well, runs well, and looks clean. All I have to do is finish what Mazda started and make it a true performance car!
ive got a nice setup on my 240... it does make a world of difference. but i also have it tuned for the injection.
I would be careful about using windshield washer fluid. The dye in the solution will clog your nozzle. As for quenching the system due to leakage, it would be near impossible due to the position of the water/meth tank (gravity would work against you).
I have a buddy with an Audi who put a 2 1/2 gallon JAZ tank in his trunk, and ran a line all the way to the engine. With this setup, he got almost 3 to 1 ratio between tanks (gas vs w/m). Some people use the ww tank as the storage for the stealth look, and some cars will let you know when the fluid is low.
As for the programmable ecu issue, the stock ecu should be able to adjust accordingly (within limits of course), so if you were running the minimal settings on the WAI you shouldn't have a problem. The ecu would just adjust as if you were using high octane fuel. This is why people with pinging issues (all us Cali peeps with crappy 91 oct) use this setup.
I am picking up my brand new MS6 this weekend
so I may be the next forum member installing this setup.
I have a buddy with an Audi who put a 2 1/2 gallon JAZ tank in his trunk, and ran a line all the way to the engine. With this setup, he got almost 3 to 1 ratio between tanks (gas vs w/m). Some people use the ww tank as the storage for the stealth look, and some cars will let you know when the fluid is low.
As for the programmable ecu issue, the stock ecu should be able to adjust accordingly (within limits of course), so if you were running the minimal settings on the WAI you shouldn't have a problem. The ecu would just adjust as if you were using high octane fuel. This is why people with pinging issues (all us Cali peeps with crappy 91 oct) use this setup.
I am picking up my brand new MS6 this weekend
so I may be the next forum member installing this setup.
just thought i'd jump in here for a sec. i know you are a dealer, but in general, no water/meth inj. kit should show serious gains on a dyno without tuning....at all. 5hp or so, maybe 10 if charge temps really suck in stock form, but gains on a meth setup are by increasing boost or advnacing timing....not just cooling. in many cases it can actually drop hp a bit, but you have a very safe running car. i've been looking into this for over a year, still am in fact. i just don't want someone thinking you are going to see a 20hp gain on the dyno (though butt-dyno is sometimes more important for daily drivers) with the system off vs it on. just wanted to inject some reality in there for those that want to see big dyno #'s....it's more about drivability and safety.
just wanted to inject some reality in there for those that want to see big dyno #'s....it's more about drivability and safety.
[/b]
+1
The only people who would actually see a big difference with the stock ecu are people who do not have access to 93+ oct fuel.
My buddy's Audi uses the REVO system which allows you to adjust timing and boost so that you can fully utilize the WAI.
I'm not an expert on the Mazda ECU, so I do not know how "adaptive" it is. From what I read so far about the octane issues though, it does appear that the car is very much affected by it.
I can tell you this much.....when I installed it and took the car out for a ride, I was VERY impressed. And I run Sunoco ultra 94 from the pump... My partner (in business, not life!) Patrick took the car for a ride....(Patrick thought the casr was lame and stupid) and he came back with all smiles! I had my old man take it out again for a thrashing (He is the official driver of all our 700+ HP trucks) and he said it was night and day. The amount of high end gain is unreal. Why? Is it the extra fuel added with the meth? The computer seeing the ability to toss more timing on the 116'ish octane fuel with the meth? The huge decrease in intake air temps? Could it be a combination of vastly cooler air, more fuel, and ability to allow the PCM to do as it wishes without any detonation at all? Whatever it is, it is huge. I spoke to Snow about the system and what they would expect, and they said that going off of thier VW/Acura experiance they would expect an honest to god 30 wheel HP without tuning. I say that I am seeing every bit of 20-30 HP, the car is much more fun to drive, it pulls thru each gear so much harder at full throttle, and pulls thru each gear much faster. This thing has already eaten a new Mustang GT, a Mitsu 3000GT AWD turbo car, and my pals new BMW M3. It is running well. I hope to be able to get more with tuning, but for now...there is no real option I know of that allows for air/fuel mixture and timing table adjustments. If there is a tuner/module for the car that can actually adjust all of this, and especially if it will allow me to adjust some of it.....let me know. I am game.
Please dyno this car and this will leave no doubt, I mean this power increase you are seeing might be similar to the difference I saw in just putting a 3" exhaust on the car...this may be the key to getting the stock computer to allow for modifications and getting them to run the fullest extent without modifying anything on the ECU...just a thought...
I think the most cost effective way to keep track of performance before and after a mod is to get the Beltronics FX-2. This way you can get some fairly accurate numbers while playing around with various settings, psi's, etc...
I find it very hard to believe that you are seeing 20-30 HP at the Wheels, nor do I believe that Snow can truthfully expect 20-30 HP the wheels without tuning based on their experiance. Not that I don't think that Snow is very knowledgable, but I can't think of any Acura or VW that comes from the Factory with a Turbo AND AWD.I spoke to Snow about the system and what they would expect, and they said that going off of thier VW/Acura experiance they would expect an honest to god 30 wheel HP without tuning. I say that I am seeing every bit of 20-30 HP
[/b]
Most of the cars that they are refering to would have to be modified to have a turbo and if they have a turbo they are more than likely going to be heavily tuned. For the VWs that are Turbo'd they still will not be accurated numbers because there is a HUGE difference between FWD and RWD compared to AWD. AWD is parasitic and eats more HP along the way to get the car moving.
For example most stock WRX's are initially Dyno'd in the 180-190 range, but at the crank they have 220.
In other words you need 2 Dyno pulls: One Stock and the other with the mod.
Also for those that would like to read more about W/M/A injection, NASIOC has a forum entirely dedicated to it.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=145
When I get back to PA I will run the car with and with-out the system armed....3 runs each. I will post the average power of each run. I have an old G-Tech from before the digital display was introduced, but it works great as a comparator. I wont set here and argue with anyone about if it makes power or not...that is like beating your head against a wall while no one is around to pitty you....But once I get the chance to be in the same state as my car, I will prove or disprove what my butt tells me. The car feels significantly quicker. Over and out...... Chill guys!
VW Touareg V10 TDI is turbo and is AWDI find it very hard to believe that you are seeing 20-30 HP at the Wheels, nor do I believe that Snow can truthfully expect 20-30 HP the wheels without tuning based on their experiance. Not that I don't think that Snow is very knowledgable, but I can't think of any Acura or VW that comes from the Factory with a Turbo AND AWD.
Most of the cars that they are refering to would have to be modified to have a turbo and if they have a turbo they are more than likely going to be heavily tuned. For the VWs that are Turbo'd they still will not be accurated numbers because there is a HUGE difference between FWD and RWD compared to AWD. AWD is parasitic and eats more HP along the way to get the car moving.
For example most stock WRX's are initially Dyno'd in the 180-190 range, but at the crank they have 220.
In other words you need 2 Dyno pulls: One Stock and the other with the mod.
Also for those that would like to read more about W/M/A injection, NASIOC has a forum entirely dedicated to it.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=145
[/b]
Acura RDX is AWD and has a turbo 4
IMHO, I can seet it. Hell CP-E dyno's those types of gains with their intake, exhaust and down pipe, individually! Gawd, i can't wait to see it dynoed as a combo. This platform reaks of bottlenecks due to it's marketing and positioning as a non-sports car. I wouldn't be surprised to see meth injection produce 20-30hp at the wheels given that the weak link on this car is heat, heat, and more heat. And as we all know: heat = detonation = knock = timing retard = boost cut = loss of power. Remember that the gains Larry has found is near readline at the upper end of the rev range where we know boost drops by 50%. any mod that brings that boost back up will automatically see gains. (so long as you're aren't out of the efficiency range of the turbo, which we know we're not as TXS has proven with 13psi at redline and P5freek has proven with 15psi at redline) remember 20-30hp will not be peak but gains but max gains.I find it very hard to believe that you are seeing 20-30 HP at the Wheels, nor do I believe that Snow can truthfully expect 20-30 HP the wheels without tuning based on their experiance.
[/b]
Ok, and a Diesel is similar to our cars how??? :headscrat:VW Touareg V10 TDI is turbo and is AWD
Acura RDX is AWD and has a turbo 4
[/b]
As for the RDX..how long have those been out and do you think that Snow has put their kit on it???
Ok, first of all I want to see a stock car that has shown a 20-30HP just by adding a intake. In order for that to get the wheels that would have to be like a 30-50HP improvement at the flywheel which is INSANE for a simple intake on a non built engine. Also, what do you mean by it will be max gains not peak? Are meaning that you might see more power in the mid range while the top end HP is the same. That make much sense when referring to Alcohol injection, becuase it mainly kicks in one things start to really spool. Which this lead into my very first statement on this. For everyone considering this I would hold out until EM was made for our cars.IMHO, I can seet it. Hell CP-E dyno's those types of gains with their intake, exhaust and down pipe, individually! Gawd, i can't wait to see it dynoed as a combo. This platform reaks of bottlenecks due to it's marketing and positioning as a non-sports car. I wouldn't be surprised to see meth injection produce 20-30hp at the wheels given that the weak link on this car is heat, heat, and more heat. And as we all know: heat = detonation = knock = timing retard = boost cut = loss of power. Remember that the gains Larry has found is near readline at the upper end of the rev range where we know boost drops by 50%. any mod that brings that boost back up will automatically see gains. (so long as you're aren't out of the efficiency range of the turbo, which we know we're not as TXS has proven with 13psi at redline and P5freek has proven with 15psi at redline) remember 20-30hp will not be peak but gains but max gains.
[/b]
If you have questions about this method of cooling the air please refer to the link I posted above. It contains many post where WRX and STi owners have asked questions and recieved answers.
Deisels use direct injection, and most are turbocharged. It's just a glow plug instead of a spark plug.Ok, and a Diesel is similar to our cars how???
Also, what do you mean by it will be max gains not peak? Are meaning that you might see more power in the mid range while the top end HP is the same.[/b]
Yes, max gain refers to the point of the largest increase over stock along the curve. It is very important to have not only high peaks, but also to cram as much space over these curves as possible. With our cars, we have a very jaged curve for both hp and tq, including some substantial dips. It seems as though any aftermarket part so far has been at least claimed to eliminate or reduce this inconsistancy. I'm certain the meth injection would aid in this as well.
i don't know how exactly the tuning works on the speed yet. but my understanding is it is pulling boost (or throttle as it were) after roughly 5500. now if this is in the tuning, it seems that it's set at a rough rpm rather than a temp, unless everyone's car hits a certain temp at the same rpm. i think someone like P5Freak would see more gains as he's running the boost controller, but for someone that has a bone stock car, i don't see 20hp to the wheels without any tuning. i've spent a lot of time on the subi and mitsu forums looking in the past year, and it just makes no sense to see those gains? even when looking at cars with shitty TMIC's (like the mini) i haven't seen any gains remotely close to substantial prior to tuning.
Now as i said before, i think in most cases, that buttdyno is more FUN than anything you can see on a dyno sheet. if YOU feel it, that's what matters, that's why i still tell people do remove the balance shaft. but i don't feel bad if it doesn't show up on a dyno, cause you can feel it for sure.
the hard thing is also, just like believing there is a turbo kit for the 3.0, is no one will believe anything until there is a dyno (and in most cases with A/F on it to make sure it's safe). just because a Gtech says you gained 50hp doesn't mean it can be shown to the masses and they can see how it will benefit them. it's seems like most are believers here except for a few skeptics, so you never know.
Now as i said before, i think in most cases, that buttdyno is more FUN than anything you can see on a dyno sheet. if YOU feel it, that's what matters, that's why i still tell people do remove the balance shaft. but i don't feel bad if it doesn't show up on a dyno, cause you can feel it for sure.
the hard thing is also, just like believing there is a turbo kit for the 3.0, is no one will believe anything until there is a dyno (and in most cases with A/F on it to make sure it's safe). just because a Gtech says you gained 50hp doesn't mean it can be shown to the masses and they can see how it will benefit them. it's seems like most are believers here except for a few skeptics, so you never know.
I completely agree. And tuning on the Speed6's should be done with the A/F ratio. I believe that regardless of how much boost you are pushing the car will always use the MAF to adjust the A/F ratios. If I am mistaken then there would be no need for tuning with the Snow kit then.i don't know how exactly the tuning works on the speed yet. but my understanding is it is pulling boost (or throttle as it were) after roughly 5500. now if this is in the tuning, it seems that it's set at a rough rpm rather than a temp, unless everyone's car hits a certain temp at the same rpm. i think someone like P5Freak would see more gains as he's running the boost controller, but for someone that has a bone stock car, i don't see 20hp to the wheels without any tuning. i've spent a lot of time on the subi and mitsu forums looking in the past year, and it just makes no sense to see those gains? even when looking at cars with shitty TMIC's (like the mini) i haven't seen any gains remotely close to substantial prior to tuning.
Now as i said before, i think in most cases, that buttdyno is more FUN than anything you can see on a dyno sheet. if YOU feel it, that's what matters, that's why i still tell people do remove the balance shaft. but i don't feel bad if it doesn't show up on a dyno, cause you can feel it for sure.
the hard thing is also, just like believing there is a turbo kit for the 3.0, is no one will believe anything until there is a dyno (and in most cases with A/F on it to make sure it's safe). just because a Gtech says you gained 50hp doesn't mean it can be shown to the masses and they can see how it will benefit them. it's seems like most are believers here except for a few skeptics, so you never know.
[/b]
Ok, first of all I want to see a stock car that has shown a 20-30HP just by adding a intake.
[/b]
max gain occurs at 3375rpm where it goes from 227ft/lbs stock to 255ft/lbs with CAI. a gain of 28ft/lbs TQ. your welcome.
i'm not saying exactly where it will or won't make max gains but i know that at 6K the torque drops all the way down to 165ft/lbs after peaking at 249ft/lbs at 4100rpm, a diff of 84ft/lbs. it's pretty damn easy to see how he got at least 1/3 of that back with meth injection even if peak only changed by a few ft/lbs. peak doesn't mean anything, it's area under the curve.Also, what do you mean by it will be max gains not peak? Are meaning that you might see more power in the mid range while the top end HP is the same.
[/b]
PDT166 you said "I can't think of any Acura or VW that comes from the Factory with a Turbo AND AWD."
I gave you one of each....thats all.
They are actually very relavant as the V10 TDI is an awsome engine, makes huge torque and gets great mileage. I was going to get one, but they discontinued them here in the US before I could.
The RDX is a very similar engine to ours, direct injected and turbocharged from the factory - I know that it is new, and Snow hasnt had a kit on it most likely - but I was just informing you of the cars that had turbos and AWD from VW and Acura.
I gave you one of each....thats all.
They are actually very relavant as the V10 TDI is an awsome engine, makes huge torque and gets great mileage. I was going to get one, but they discontinued them here in the US before I could.
The RDX is a very similar engine to ours, direct injected and turbocharged from the factory - I know that it is new, and Snow hasnt had a kit on it most likely - but I was just informing you of the cars that had turbos and AWD from VW and Acura.
21 - 40 of 59 Posts
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