[smoker6]

Was going to put up a thread later when I actually have some logs, but I just couldn't help myself. This new forum section was so inviting.

Right, so in short, I would greatly appreciate some help with tuning. Issue I'm facing currently is shocking turbo spool lag, which I've been trying to combat with some leaner afrs / pulled timing (maybe WGDC tables need tweaking? Not sure how to use those correctly). After that, tuning for (safe) power would be splendid too, as my tune is more or less rubbish (haven't logged since recent changes, so my log may be truly awful). lol

Important mods:
GT2871r, dnp mani, VTA EWG 44mm, perrin EBCS, Liquid/air IC, CPE catted DP, synapse bpv, EGR/vtcs delete, ported mani, mrlilguy HPFP, CPE CAI+TIP. Think that's it for what matters. Meth not installed.

I'll start taking some logs today on my way home and will hopefully post them tonight along with my current tune. More logs over the weekend.

Thanks in advance to all those who help.

 

[dougefresh_]

^A rare request for a part throttle log as well... but since you mentioned getting a lot PT KR ever since the vtcs delete it may be worth a look see. You mentioned zero KR at WOT... but you are spraying too, no? If there is a problem w/ the KR sensor, it could be causing SOME problems. I only say that because the ECU uses the KR sensor to advance timing to the point of KR to maximize power & fuel economy IIRC.

 

[smoker6]

No I'm not spraying. And to be fair since I leaned out my AFR's last week I may or may not have some KR at WOT now, I'll see when I log.

Sure, I'll do a PT log too to show my awesome KR while cruising. lol

 

[superskaterxes]

lol how could you have spool issues with a 28? can you explain your problem a little better?

 

[smoker6]

That's exactly my point. lol It feels like epic throttle response fail and insane turbo lag spool. By insane I mean if I floor it at say 3k RPM it takes me a good 3 sec to hit full boost (guesstimating, logs will show the truth later). I have no boost leaks, and it doesn't matter whether I run with cutout open (3" in DP) or have exhaust go through my 2.5" CBE with restrictive mufflers, so its not a back pressure issue.

Hopefully logs show something.

 

[FORZDA 1]

.... Issue I'm facing currently is shocking turbo spool lag, which I've been trying to combat with some leaner afrs / pulled timing (maybe WGDC tables need tweaking? Not sure how to use those correctly). .....

More WGDC is your friend. Start by just highlighting the section where you want more boost and multiply by 1.x (2or3 to start)

 

[smoker6]

Oh and I'm not complaining baselessly, I recall very well getting a ride in a local GT3071r ms6 which reacted much better than mine does currently. Once mine gets into full boost it hauls ass, but I could lose a whole race before I get to that, and I don't even have a big turbo. -_-

 

[smoker6]

K, I'll add those changes when I get home this evening to the WGDC tables and see what happens. I'll still grab a log or two on my way home today though as is.

 

[SJP0tato]

(maybe WGDC tables need tweaking? Not sure how to use those correctly).

From the testing I've done with the WGDC tables, a rough "rule of thumb" on the actual limiting value of WGDC compared to the value in the table for your RPM/TPS is:
(TableValue X 2) + 10

For example, I tried putting 25.0 in all the WGDC table fields, and my actual WGDC from logging maxed out at 60% or so. Putting 35.0 maxes around 80%, 40.0 maxes around 90% or so.

It's not an exact result, but very close to this. If everything else is requesting more power (load, boost values) but you're not achieving them then it's possible the WGDC table is limiting your power.

 

[dougefresh_]

K, I'll add those changes when I get home this evening to the WGDC tables and see what happens. I'll still grab a log or two on my way home today though as is.

Don't forget to adjust your Boost Dynamics table as well to let the ECU reduce wgdc more in case of an overboost. I'll check my map and see what I have dialed in.

Boost Error = Actual Boost - Boost Target. So positive boost error values = overboost, and neg = underboost.

EDIT: Attached. I'm pretty sure this is the map I was using... my AP died again. You can see how with a +1 PSI overboost, I'm calling for a 12% reduction in wgdc vs. the stock mapping, which only reduces it by 1%. 3 PSI overboost, I have it reduce wgdc by 30% (vs. only a 10% reduction in the stock mapping), etc. I also just noticed I was somewhat aggressive in adding some wgdc in the case of underboost... I don't recall why I choose those values, but my boost was doing great before my fuel system fell apart, lol. 95% of the tuning is done via wgdc... this just helps if there are errors. It would be interesting to see what your boost would do if you just increased the BD table for underboost and see how your boost and logged wgdc reacts.

 

[smoker6]

My attempt to decrease spool time by leaning out pulling timing was a bit of fail as when I went WOT I pulled some icky KR. I'm going to go back to the map I've been running for months which is safe and rich, and THEN I'll post logs etc, so logs over the weekend.

You wanted PT knock log though...here, have some. Hilariously enough, despite getting it here I did not have the constant KR of 7+ that I've had since the CPE flash (and here it was low vac...previously I would get insane KR just cruising at -18vac). This stopped with the latest ATR update (load cap). Conclusions?

-The CPE "Big boy flash" (what P3 was calling it) merely moved up the load cap.
-This load cap flash somehow screwed with my KR readings, giving my constant PT KR.
-Cobb unlocking the load cap tables in ATR finally overwrote the CPE flash, fixing my PT KR, I guess.
-In my case at least, P3 was not at fault.


edit: apparently load didn't make the cut. Pardon me, was my first time logging with the AP instead of the DH.

 

[superskaterxes]

From the testing I've done with the WGDC tables, a rough "rule of thumb" on the actual limiting value of WGDC compared to the value in the table for your RPM/TPS is:
(TableValue X 2) + 10

For example, I tried putting 25.0 in all the WGDC table fields, and my actual WGDC from logging maxed out at 60% or so. Putting 35.0 maxes around 80%, 40.0 maxes around 90% or so.

It's not an exact result, but very close to this. If everything else is requesting more power (load, boost values) but you're not achieving them then it's possible the WGDC table is limiting your power.

technically this is un true. no one really knows the actual equation and i wouldent be going by any kind of rule of thumb when it comes to something like this.

smoker, did u do a WOT log? what RPM do you get full boost at? whats your full boost? please do a log from like 2500 RPM's in 3rd to redline so we can see what the problem with your spool is. im leaning towards a mechanical problem if your WGDC table isent completely fubarred. when did u start seeing these problems?

 

[smoker6]

I did, but with some icky KR I let off very quickly. I'm going to load up the attached map (the one I've been running the entire time without the recent leaning changes), and I'll have a proper WOT log for you tomorrow.

edit: Nevermind I can't attach the tune file. Anyway to do it?

Just uploaded it to a 3rd party site:
http://jump.fm/DAWXL

Again, WOT logs tomorrow.

The issue isn't particularly what RPM I go full boost at, its how long it takes to hit full boost from the time I go 100% on the accel. Maybe I'm making shit up. -_- I've gone through some many issues perhaps I just don't remember what a car is supposed to run like anymore. lol Said problem has been around since I installed the turbo.

 

[dougefresh_]

You wanted PT knock log though...here, have some. Hilariously enough, despite getting it here I did not have the constant KR of 7+ that I've had since the CPE flash (and here it was low vac...previously I would get insane KR just cruising at -18vac). This stopped with the latest ATR update (load cap). Conclusions?

-The CPE "Big boy flash" (what P3 was calling it) merely moved up the load cap.
-This load cap flash somehow screwed with my KR readings, giving my constant PT KR.
-Cobb unlocking the load cap tables in ATR finally overwrote the CPE flash, fixing my PT KR, I guess.
-In my case at least, P3 was not at fault.


edit: apparently load didn't make the cut. Pardon me, was my first time logging with the AP instead of the DH.

Yikes on the PT... who's there? lol Did the "big boy" flash ONLY increase the Max Calc Load tables, or did it increase timing as well? Increasing that the max calc load only should have nothing to do with increasing KR. People that were hitting the load cap before the CPE flashes, and the "load cap trick" on msf weren't getting an excessive KR while hitting the load cap or after the new Max Calc load tables were added afaik.

Your lack of spooling and KR are two separate issues that need to be addressed here. Looking at the PT log with the +6 KR... I would compare your IGN- Low Throttle/CL Knocking and No KR tables to your spark advance... however, you can't do this with the current log bc timing is referenced by rpm + load. Since your AFRs were at stoich, we can assume that your ECU did not add any fuel to combat KR here, and was only trying to pull timing. Actually, I just took a peek at a random stage 2 OTS map I had, and there is ZERO difference between KR and No KR IGN tables for Low Throttle (PT)/CL! I never looked bc I never had that problem. IIRC, the ECU can only pull 6 degrees of timing from the lower of the two tables (they DO differ in the IGN high throttle tables).

You could try pulling several degrees of timing from the IGN-CL-KR table and see what spark advance does. However, even if this 'cured' it, I still think something is wrong here and it would be better to figure out what it is.

im leaning towards a mechanical problem if your WGDC table isent completely fubarred

I'm leaning towards this as well. His wgdc tables could only explain it if they were all 0's up to like 50% TPS (guesstimate).... thus regardless of at what rpm he dipped into wot, the wg would be getting flooded and thus no boost over spring until later... that is very unlikely also.

I'm thinking his ebcs could be shot, or maybe there is a problem with the wg/wga itself? What's the spring pressure on your ewg Smoker? I'm not familiar w/ ewg's, and I'm trying to picture how it would be possible for the wg to be partially open until boost builds enough that it slams it shut, and then open back up according to the load targets and wgdc. That could explain it, BUT I don't know if that's physically possible! haha A screwed up ebcs is more likely. Try pulling any codes with the AP... the DH is a fail and half at pulling codes.

Smoker- fill them in on the other mech stuff you've had.... coolant, ticking sound. I forgot to link you... been a hectic day!

 

[dougefresh_]

Here's the clicking sound I was talking about that MANY people get from an upgraded hpfp. There's a thread on msf about it with other vids. The CPE pump seems to be the most common to make noise, but the PTP pump can as well. This vid is actually of a brand new STOCK pump that PTP sent me when I ask for my loot back and a stock pump. So, yes, this is after all my fuel pressure problems, but it's the same sound that others with no fuel problems have:

However, it's not that loud, and I'd have to have my window down at idle, and no music on to hear it. More importantly, I think you said your sound increases at higher rpms, and you suspected the injectors? There are several threads on msf about the fuel pump clicking, and this one is the most detailed, and Lex tore the pump apart, took pics, etc.. if you're interested:

Mazdaspeed Forums

 

[smoker6]

Yeah, a ticking noise that increases in speed with RPM, but I don't think I have any sort of exhaust leak. Though if I did it would also explain my slower turbo spool. Bah. I love my car, but I hate my car. xD

 

[dougefresh_]

Yeah, a ticking noise that increases in speed with RPM, but I don't think I have any sort of exhaust leak. Though if I did it would also explain my slower turbo spool. Bah. I love my car, but I hate my car. xD

When you go to do your WOT logs, please try to pull and trouble codes with the AP. The DH doesn't always pick up codes, but the AP will pull everything. Plus, there are codes that don't always trip a CEL. Also, when you're done w/ the code, clear it with the AP, not the DH. The AP removes it completely, but it can come back if you go to clear it w/ the AP. I look forward to getting your car straightened out Thanks again for get through the learning curve in ATR way back when, and walking me through the MAF cal, and load tuning via private tutoring! Skates, and Fozda were also instrumental (still are) in helping me out as well. Thanks fellas!

EDIT: Typo: The AP removes it completely, but it can come back if you go to clear it w/ the DH (not the AP).

 

[smoker6]

Didn't see this bit:

Try pulling any codes with the AP... the DH is a fail and half at pulling codes.

Smoker- fill them in on the other mech stuff you've had.... coolant, ticking sound. I forgot to link you... been a hectic day! __________________

Didn't know that, I'll see if I have any more codes via AP, but should just be my VTCS and EGR codes (which DH picks up). Other mech issues are said ticking sound which I've always thought are my hella loud injectors, and potentially my turbo eating some coolant as I smelled some after running my car hard above the turbo area, but I'll investigate that more thoroughly tomorrow.

I'm constantly on the look out for anything wrong with my car so both of these "issues" are probably nothing, I'm just sensitive to anything that might be wrong. xD

I think I'm mostly just failing on my tune currently, because I'm more or less running the beta GT2871r cobb map with tweaks (link to map attached in earlier post). Hopefully you lot will get me straightened out.

 

[superskaterxes]

the reason i asked what RPM your getting full boost is because, usually regardless of your current speed, gear, throttle position, your mechanically limited by the RPM for your turbo to spool. most GT28's have a full 17-20PSI by ~3000 RPM's so if your starting at 2500 RPM's and u mash the pedal its gona take X amount of time but if your starting at say 3500 RPM's then it should be almost instantaneous.

after your turbo finally does spool do you hit and hold your max PSI like normal? can you type out your exact mod list as it relates to this issue? (leave out non engine related parts)

 

[SJP0tato]

technically this is un true. no one really knows the actual equation and i wouldent be going by any kind of rule of thumb when it comes to something like this.

True, it's not exact. But it's a rough idea of how the table values result.

It's not really that unsafe unless your WGDC is the only limiting factor you have in your tune. If you have your psi set to 25 and load set to 3.5 then sure it could be dangerous. But if you don't know why you're not hitting your requested load targets, and all you see is 35.0 in your WGDC table it's helpful to know that will "likely" result in a 70% WGDC value which might be less than you need to hit your load target.