[pepperjack13]

I was working on my car the other day trying to get the starter to work. Once I installed the starter I went ahead and tried to start the car and as I turned the key I heard this loud "clank" followed by the usual noise of the starter not engaging.

My first thought was that probably a tooth or 2 had broken off the flywheel. So I decided to remove the starter to see if there was any damage. And that’s when I noticed a little bit of smoke coming out of three places: the hole in the air intake accordion hose closest to the TB (a little hose goes there but I think I forgot to put it back on), the air box, and from the back of the intake manifold where a hose (the third one from left to right starting with the one leading to the pcv valve) is supposed to go but that for some reason was disconnected.

The smoke was light blue and I think it smelled like oil. The car didn't start though. Does anybody know what could have caused the smoke?

 

[karlt10]

I think you done killed it......

The 'clank' makes me want to think a wrench or something got away from you, but the smoke sounds like it backfired. I think the only thing you can do is a basic 'WTF' look-over. First thing I'd do is pull the plugs and see if you can turn the engine over by hand with a breaker bar on the crank pulley.

 

[pepperjack13]

I really hope that's not the case. As far as I know I am not missing any tools, and how could something ended up in the engine? unless something got into the transmission through the opening left when removing the starter.

Is it really necessary to remove all spark plugs? I have heard it is a PITA to remove the three in the rear. Where is the crank pulley located? is it very hard to get to?

Sometimes it seems like the car is about to start but then I can hear the starter not engaging, but I haven't seen more smoke.

 

[Speed135]

What happened since it ran right? High miles? Using oil? Back fire sounds very logical for the smoke in intake. Hope the clunk wasn't timing jump causing a back fire and the mentioned smoke. When I had timing jump long time ago, the engine would barely run, sounded like timing retarded real bad and back fire if throttle advanced. Just need more info on this one. Pull plugs, check them for fouling and pull it through like suggested if it won't start.
Why do you thnk teeth are broken on flywheel?

 

[Speed135]

There are a few could be's here. You posted while I was writting, didn't mention if engine backfired. The concern is the clunk or clank--again high miles, worn timing chain? Pull front plugs to get idea of condition, are they fouled? If the starter is spinning the engine but not starting, turning by hand won't prove anything. The crank pully will be in the center of the belts at lowest point. Did you get all those hoses reconnected, can't have anything disconnected or holes in duct from MAS to TB.
Remember the starter is not a constant duty motor, got to let it cool even if it is cold out. If the starter sounds to be disengaging during the start the clutch is probably going bad. That's the gear unit that engages the flywheel.
If you really don't feel like it jumped time, you could have fuel pressure problems, not enough to get started.
Lastly, if job looks complicated take a few pictures or make drawings before starting, make things much easier going back together.

 

[pepperjack13]

I recently bought the car and it had starter issues, took it to a mechanic before buying it and he said it needed a new starter. It used to start but it used to take a few tries. Bought used starter and installed and now it doesn't start with either starter. I still don't know if its the starter, which sound to be working just not engaging, or the flywheel because some teeth are very worn. That is what led me maybe a tooth had broken.

The car was running very good before that (clutch was fine). I remember disconnecting the intake accordion hose and the little hose on top of it closest to the TB (I was checking the AA or AB in the TB) and only the accordion house was reconnected but not tightened. I don't know why the other hose in the intake manifold was disconnected.

After the smoke I reconnected everything and kept trying to start the car and didn't see more smoke. The car still doesn't start. But who knows maybe the clunk was the starter but I still don't know about the smoke. So what would happen just by disconnecting those 2 hoses? Would the car throw a CEL if it didn't start?

@speed153 even if it didn't start would the plugs show any signs? what did you do regarding the timing issue?

 

[Speed135]

The plugs can tell you what is going on in the engine, mainly if oil on them suggesting blowby caused by worn rings and or worn out valve seals. If plugs are not clean it won't start especially if cold out. If the engine jumped time, have to replace timing chain and sprockets. With worn flywheel suggests starter problem for a while. Will post more a bit later, have to go for now and give more info.

 

[The Great NY]

sounds like the classis flywheel teeth sliding off the actual fly wheel. the teeth on the stock flywheel are pressed onto the plate assembly. over time they can loosen up and the starter wont engage them since its sliding off towards the passenger side

i had pictures of this issue. id have to see if i can find them.

but did you ever remove the starter after the first clank. or did you get caught up by the smoke appearing. that, i agree with karl that it may have been a backfire due to an un completed crank attempt.

 

[Speed135]

The teeth pressed into flywheel shoots my starter clutch idea out. Strange design. Looked up flywheel in my 07 MM, they call it a duel mass flywheel, looks like two of something and must be different then one talked about.
Sorry bout jumped time stuff, the clang sounded like a kick back, didn't have much to go with.

 

[pepperjack13]

I did removed the starter after that but no broken teeth. I don't know much about the flywheel but does it make a complete revolution when you start the car? because sometimes when the starter seems to engage and the car is about to start but doesn't I take the starter off and the flywheel is showing the same really worn teeth.

It looks like the starter sometimes moves the flywheel but every time it gets to the same group of really worn teeth it has trouble engaging and therefore the car doesn't start. That is if the flywheel has to make more than one revolution every time you start the car.

So if the engine backfired does it mean that something inside the engine was damaged? or everything (besides the flywheel/starter) is just fine?

I am still crossing my fingers hoping the timing is ok and nothing somehow got in the engine.

 

[karlt10]

Are you saying that you know for certain your flywheel DOES have warn teeth?

If so, it's possible that your starter was turning over the engine and got to the bad section of teeth. If that bad section just happens to be the same time as the heart of a compression stroke is taking place, it's possible that the engine kicked-back just as it was attempting to fire. (the energy in the crank assembly is now more powerful than the reduced amount of force your starter is able to push against the flywheel because it's slipping) And instead of going out the exhaust, your ignited fuel & air were forced back-up through the intake valves which have now also been forced backwards into the open/intake motion they had just completed. That was the source of your smoke. The source of your 'clank' was most likely the valvetrain and attached timing chain assembly being kicked backwards.

It's not what most would consider a true back-fire, such as really out of whack timing, but it basically is the same; the rotating assembly no longer has enough forward force to get the compressing piston & rod assembly past it's TDC.

If you have bad teeth, I'd wager what I say above is what has happened to you. If so, I'd stopped trying to start the thing - you're going to cause BIG problems.

Well, unless you have a stick and can always park on a hill..... :lol:

 

[Speed135]

Flywheel probably got damaged engaging starter while engine running to many times in the past, yes it happens. Or the starter clutch going bad and releasing before the engine starts re-engaging and doing damage. Non of that mattters any more. Unless you can do the job your self, a mechanic is going to look at it in the end anyway to see how bad it is. You could luck out and have two really worn starters you are working with.
The starter clutch assembly (with gear) used to be able to be replaced last time I had one go bad--if so you could save a lot of money. Rebuilt starter for our Honda about five years ago was $150.00.

 

[pepperjack13]

@karlt10 thanks for all the info, I had no idea something like that could happen. I hope all of that didn't damage anything that would prevent the car from starting or running good once it starts. So I assume there is no point in checking the spark plugs right? I am not going to do anything to it until I get the money to take it to a shop.

@Speed135 that's another possibility. It is also likely that the other starter i bough used somehow is not working right, even thought I saw it working just fine when I wanted to return it.

Here is the picture of the section of worn teeth in the flywheel I was telling you about.

 

[Speed135]

Those teeth don't look that bad, unless the real bad ones are hidden. The starter has a lever that throws the clutch/gear into the flywheel. If that shaft is dry and does not allow the throw of the clutch/gear assembly into the flywheel deep enough you have part of your problem, damaging the flywheel just getting a partial grab on it.
To save some money and if you feel up to it you can take your starter apart being careful with brushes on the communtator end. See if you can get the nose end off and inspect the shaft where the clutch/gear slides. Don't know what it should be lubed with, maybe a lithium grease. Make sure the unit (clutch/gear) slides freely, I am sure you would have noticed it the starter gear was badly chewed up and mentioned it.
If you get at the clutch, with two slip joint plyers, one set on gear and other around clutch, twist back and forth--make sure it only slips in one direction.
See if you can find a blowup of a starter on the enternet to get an idea what is inside.
How to repair a starter etc.

 

[pepperjack13]

I agree with you, I think the gear in the starter should still be able to engage the flywheel but when the used starter I bought didn't work either I thought I had no choice but to pay $1400 to get the flywheel and clutch replaced. The damage you see in the pic is due to the old starter's gear not sliding or struggling to slide. The old starter doesn't have any visual signs of wear that would make me believe it is damaged other than a lot of black dust.

I don't feel like messing with the starter (I didn't even know how it worked prior to this incident) but I will try to buy a new one and put it on before taking it to a mechanic just to rule out a problem with the starter. Thanks anyways.