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Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone run MSDS header on MTX V6? Just wondering on the gains in HP& TQ? I saw on their site AT V6 stats, not bad. Alot lesser then Cp-E, and since wagner went tits up. Just looking for some info if anyone running that combination. And how much louder does it make the car?

Thanks
 

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Only a select few still run the MSDS headers after the problems they had. Basically a mirror copy of the Contour/Cougar platform headers with a y-pipe that had fitment issues. Personally I never got them because it seemed no one could match the numbers MSDS claimed their headers put to the ground, both on the ATX and MTX models they installed them on.

This is why the owner/operator of Draxas put out a challenge to dyno MSDS and CP-e headers back to back.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Only a select few still run the MSDS headers after the problems they had. Basically a mirror copy of the Contour/Cougar platform headers with a y-pipe that had fitment issues. Personally I never got them because it seemed no one could match the numbers MSDS claimed their headers put to the ground, both on the ATX and MTX models they installed them on.

This is why the owner/operator of Draxas put out a challenge to dyno MSDS and CP-e headers back to back.
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So this set headers they advertise on thier site for the M6 causes this problem also?

www.msdsinc.com/new_mazda6.htm
 

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Only a select few still run the MSDS headers after the problems they had. Basically a mirror copy of the Contour/Cougar platform headers with a y-pipe that had fitment issues. Personally I never got them because it seemed no one could match the numbers MSDS claimed their headers put to the ground, both on the ATX and MTX models they installed them on.

This is why the owner/operator of Draxas put out a challenge to dyno MSDS and CP-e headers back to back.
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Eh....? I was at the dyno facility the day Loren's Mazda6s was dynoed with the MSDS Headers... The numbers are legit as far as Im concerned. I offered the challenge to show people that the MSDS headers make comparable power to the CP-E headers on the same car. Or, to at least show the HP/$$ ratio of the two brands of headers.

I hope nobody else misconstrued my post about the dyno challenge....assuming that I was breaking my relationship with MSDS.

The dyno comparison will happen once the SoCal owner receives his headers. Then everyone will have valid information to conduct further discussions on this matter.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Draxas,

How do you like the headers? Does it make car much louder? I have been checking in with MSDS every since your post, and been gettting lots of response from them. Check this out.

Marty

Just wanted to let you know that I am very pleased with the header system, the install and instructions were very well written. I can really tell the difference in the performance of the car especially in the low end, the torque is awesome it causes the traction control to go crazy. I am running the AEM short ram and a magnaflow system with the headers, just wanted to know why the resister and capacitor were needed in the lower sensors and do you have a logo decal.

A very pleased customer


He also responded to my questions here:

Martin,

Thanks for the reply. Good to have people and business that appreciate the Military like yourself. Just a quick couple question, Does this application have any issues at the moment with the Mazda 6? Are there any problems with it fitting the headers as there were associated with Contour SVT 2.5? Or is this application brand new, specially made for the Mazda 6?

Sorry, for the question, I just want the best for my car. I look forward to your response.

Curtis

He replied by:

Curtis,

I am sort of not clear on "Fitment" issues on the Mazda6. Do you mean all of the posts by the "Planted" forum members that don't want enthusiasts to use MSDS headers and only steer them to Wagner ( BK'd and took deposits) or CPE/ Kooks for twice the cash outlay ?
The Mazda6S , believe it or not is a Ford Duratec V6 engine, originally designed by Porsche Design AG, and is basically the same in Contour, Cougar, Escape, Tribute, Mondeo, Mystique and the new Fusion.The Mazda6S does get a nice pair of V V T cyllinder heads from Mazda. We make the front and rear headers , and then each different mentioned platform gets a dedicated y-pipe/ downpipe , support brackets and emissions fittings. Henceforth a complete dedicated, excellent HP/ Tq. making comprehensive header system , that funtions, fits and gets you a decent return on your invested "Upgrade dollar". Our parts must be decent...even the Chinese copied us--ever heard of Weapon-R performance? On feb. 1, 2005 we legally shut down their counterfeiting of MSDS cloned Duratec V6 exhaust headers.
Iv'e been in the aftermarket industry since 1976, and a SEMA member since 1985. My Porsche products usually podium finish in national Porsche club and SCCA events.
Since 2001, we have sold over 1,000 duratec V6 header systems worldwide.

Regards,
Marty msdsinc.
 

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do you mean all of the posts by the "Planted" forum members [/b]
Why would the owners of MSDS products "plant" posts bashing the stuff they've already shelled out money for? It wasn't rival companies creating false rumors. It's the owners of the MSDS headers that originated all the negativity towards them. Everyone else has just repeated what they said.
 

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wow. after reading, makes me even more happier with my decision to spend more and get the cp-e headers. oh, and on the dyno thingy, i would be willing to throw down for that at mazfest in may, if i have them, i will get them on the car asap, and i will be at mazfest for sure. :)
 

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Let me put in my 2 cents as I've typically not commented much in these types of threads.

I had Loren's original headers. The original prototype headers made by Marty.

The headers installed fine on my car. I did not have an exhaust leak on my set up. Some persons complained about fitment but I think it was mainly people who didn't like the type of connectors used between the pieces. I don't recall exactly how many actual owners complained of fitment. There were probably one or two IIRC, but mine worked out.

About MSDS: Marty was very good about helping me with the install on my car. He returned my calls promptly. He sent me install instructions with hand-written notes. He even modified a set of o2 sensors for me for free to hopefully eliminate any CELs.

Header design: The design of the headers requires a notch to be made in the heat shield of the alternator. That was not great but I never had any issues with alternator failure due to the notch on the heat shield. I was able to also change my oil filter with the design of the headers, unlike I believe Wagner's set up that is nigh impossible to do so.

The dyno numbers. On my car I showed about a 10hp/10ft.lbs. gain on the headers. I have to say the shop I went to I don't think did the dyno testing right. They changed the weight of the vehicle between the morning before test and the evening after test. I was not very impressed so I think the numbers thing is a wash. I really like Nik's idea of doing a same day comparo.

The sound of the headers, well, was quite raspy. However, that is the case with most unequal length headers on a v6 engine. A few of the guys who later bought the MSDS headers put on a bigger resonator or a high flow cat to tone down the sound.

The biggest issue I had with the headers was a weird little quirk. If I cruised the car at about any speed where the rpms stayed steady in the 2k-2.5k range, the Check Engine Light would come on. The code was a rear bank catalyst inefficiency (well duh, since there's not a cat there) which the CEL eliminator should have taken care of but didn't. I always equated that problem to the ECU dumping back exhaust gases into the engine at low rev cruising speed. It was not a problem but an annoyance I didn't care for at all.

In the end I pitched the headers. Why? Well, two reasons. First, I am going back to stock to sell my car so I had to get them off. In deciding what to do, I was really concerned about the high heat coating I had put on the headers by a local company had failed and there was rusting on the headers. I think there would have been a lot of refinishing work to make the headers useable by someone else for an extended period of time. So the sale price would be low. Plus, the CEL issue for me made me really hesitate to sell them to someone else. In the end, the money I would take in was not worth the trouble.

Overall, my personal experience was a mixed bag with the MSDS headers but on the positive side. The performance gains were noticeable. Marty was great to deal with. The price I paid was really good. The sound was not so good but I could have cured that myself if I bothered to invest the money. The CEL issue, well, I talked with other owners and no one else seemed to have it so that could be a one-off issue.

Would I do it again with MSDS? Dunno. I am a big fan of equal length headers CPE is making as those historically produce the best gains for a car. However, I would naturally be concerned about many of the same issues with CPE (sound, quality of coating materials in harsh winers and potential for CEL) that I had with MSDS. A major point for me might just be the pricing. Hard to say. I think it really comes down to waiting a bit more for reviews by people in the CPE group buy before I would make a decision.
 

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LOL I am a plant! :D

I never owned them, I was just passing along the sentiments from other owners.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I just posted his response to gather any more input on MSDS products. I dont think it was meant to bash other companies/ products, it's a big market out there.

Davecoyne, thanks for your respone.

I love Cp-E, but I was just exercising options to fit the budget on the headers subject, just that Cp-E and MSDS are only 2 big names on headers right now, And i'm sure Marty from MSDS just express his thoughts as everyone else on the forum does.

I hope I didn't offend anyone( MSDS) owners by this post.
 

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I just posted his response to gather any more input on MSDS products. I dont think it was meant to bash other companies/ products, it's a big market out there.

Davecoyne, thanks for your respone.

I love Cp-E, but I was just exercising options to fit the budget on the headers subject, just that Cp-E and MSDS are only 2 big names on headers right now, And i'm sure Marty from MSDS just express his thoughts as everyone else on the forum does.

I hope I didn't offend anyone( MSDS) owners by this post.
[/b]

Marty is just frustrated, thats all. He has had GREAT success with this headers for the Contour/Cougar platform as he said...selling well over 1000 sets since production began in 2001. He takes offense to people posting on message boards that he "rushed a product to market" or that "the headers are crap" (quotes I have seen posted on this board and Mazda6Tech.com numerous times).

The reference to "plants"..... Whether or not that is the correct word to use for what Marty is trying to convey is a topic for another discussion... What he is trying to get across there is that, is often the case on message boards, someone will be offered a "free" part from a said company... That person then goes onto the boards and begins hyping the product to everyone on the boards. Every other company who makes a similar part is automatically inferior to the company working with said forum member receiving the free part. I see this on every message board I go to. Some of the perps are worse than others of course. Some do have some tact with how they post product information for the company helping them out and have class when discussing competitors products......others don't.

I've seen time and again where a core group of forum members, who have chosen to, or maybe subconscienslly (sp?) chosen to, get behind a company...and whenever another forum member asks a question about a particular part, they are steared away from one company and directly to another company. How many times were potential MSDS customers steared away from MSDS and to Wagner.....? Who knows how many people lost money following the advice of the self-proclaimed "Mazda6 Modification Gods"? :)

All I want to focus on is my task at hand.... dyno testing the car in SoCal that currently has the MSDS headers installed, and then re-dynoing after he installs the CP-E headers...Using the same dyno and SAE correction. If it plays out where the MSDS headers make the same power at half the price.... or the CP-E headers make twice the power for twice the price... so be it. At least we will all know. And those who choose to buy the headers "rushed to market" by MSDS will be able to do so with a clear conscience. ;-)
 

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I know exactly what they mean. Some get stuck on one product so much they are afraid to try something else and seem to give people tons of crap for trying it out themselves without paying a ton of money for dyno's right off the bat so they can say I told you so or hmm well it does work...

But ANYHOW...

I'm curious to see what the #'s are on both myself. But there is a 3rd option coming up soon for people to play with. So we'll have to get someone to try those out in comparison as well. DC Sport's is supposed to come out with a 3-1 design. Hopefully equal length as well. I too care about that which is what would steer me towards CP-E. But if the sound and the #'s are the same then I would have to re-analyze that one. ;)
 

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But there is a 3rd option coming up soon for people to play with. So we'll have to get someone to try those out in comparison as well. DC Sport's is supposed to come out with a 3-1 design. Hopefully equal length as well. I too care about that which is what would steer me towards CP-E. But if the sound and the #'s are the same then I would have to re-analyze that one. ;)
[/b]

Ive been hearing that rumor from DC Sports since I bought my car........
 

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Didn't say it was a rumor. But thanks for your input. All I can say is having 3 options should motivate prices to move down a little. Better for the customer. ;)
 
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