MSDS HEADERS OR CPE HEADERS
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Um get the msds headers and you wont be spending alot of money... Problem solved.
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1,479 Posts
Like fullmetal said, if you're willing to go through some extra steps in purchasing high-flow cats for the MSDS header setup vs. purchasing the CP-E longtube headers with everything already straight from them, then you can save about $200-300 bucks or so. The hp gains are both very similar. CP-E is better for the long run if you plan on keeping your 6 forever. I reccommend CP-E, but to save $$ MSDS will work fine. Just remember, CP-E will work with our community much easier than MSDS, or the company that sells them will, if you ever run into problems and need customer service.
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2,912 Posts
in theory, long tube equal length headers (cp-e) are a superior design than short tube unequal length headers (msds).
but truth be told, no one's ever dyno'ed cp-e headers vs msds's headers so there's no facts to back up statements that one is better than another, or if they are even similar.
msds headers + pay a local shop to make a y-pipe with cats for you, would probably end up the same price as the cp-e set after its all said and done.
anyways, you can't buy cp-e headers right now so you kinda have no choice. unless a used one pops up or cp-e decides to do another run of headers which won't happen for a while.
but truth be told, no one's ever dyno'ed cp-e headers vs msds's headers so there's no facts to back up statements that one is better than another, or if they are even similar.
msds headers + pay a local shop to make a y-pipe with cats for you, would probably end up the same price as the cp-e set after its all said and done.
anyways, you can't buy cp-e headers right now so you kinda have no choice. unless a used one pops up or cp-e decides to do another run of headers which won't happen for a while.
thanks for the opinions but to Spidy, i deff can buy them. they have them on http://www.therpmstore.com/index.php , but for a high price
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Nope, that is a link to get on a wait list. Once there are sufficient numbers they'll make them again.
http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=916275
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397 Posts
Please be sure to research this thoroughly. I am under the impression that the CP-E is still not kinks-free. Make sure you know a good exhaust mechanics because this is a relatively big mod. I'm sure Spidy, who's been following the CP-E headers way longer than I have, can shed some light on this. Good luck.
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1,252 Posts
Also remember, currently neither header works for the '06-'07 6s due to a slight layout change done underneith (the rear will probably work but the front won't, will hit the oil pan). The CP-E one's I am trying to gather enough interested people so CP-E will make some for the '06-'07 (see link in sig). The MSDS you might be able to get to work but will have to pay someone to do some custom pipe fabrication from connectors to the y-pipe. And granted, an actual apples to apples comparison has not been done. Instead in a previous topic I posted a spreadsheet of current dynos (Located Here) for each to give an idea of where the power gain is at and the percentage gain. But due to dyno differences there is some missing info and flaws, so take the gains over each other with a grain of salt and instead focus on power improvement and where the power develops.
Shorties are good for quick bolt-on and mild to little other mods to take advantage of them. Shorties also tend to build up power from low to mid range and not so much up top. Long tube equal length headers are typically more powerful in the mid to high but do have gains in the low (typically within a few percent of the shorties) but tend to have larger gains the more you modify the car. Due to the latter, people who plan to do the full shebang at some point or close to it (headers, exhaust, intake, manifold, throttle body, cams etc.) may benefit more from the long tube.
Other considerations are ease of installation. Shorties are easier to install versus longtube (which you have to finesse a bit). The MSDS you have to cut into the alternator shielding to work. The longtube relocates the alternator and supplies you a longer belt for the change. Correct me if I am wrong, but the MSDS headers were designed for the Duratec engine in general and not specifically tuned for our car with exception to the y-pipe connector. The CP-E headers were designed from the ground up for our car and were tuned for our car. Not trying to make one a negative over the other, just pointing out where they came from (and I may be wrong on this). Either way you will get gains, it just depends on how and where you want the gains and what are your future plans when it comes to mods.
As for the CP-E headers not being trouble free, that was with the earlier versions and I believe that problem has been solved and remedied in all newer headers (part of the reason you don't see them in stock, the final touches are being put on the design before being sent back out to Kooks for manufacture, they may have already been sent out). The issue was due to the cats rattling apart, which was fixed by another set of cats that were placed to close together and rattled, and are now done with spun cats and the distance between them should not cause them to touch. I hope this helps and welcome to the community.
:seeya:
Paul
Shorties are good for quick bolt-on and mild to little other mods to take advantage of them. Shorties also tend to build up power from low to mid range and not so much up top. Long tube equal length headers are typically more powerful in the mid to high but do have gains in the low (typically within a few percent of the shorties) but tend to have larger gains the more you modify the car. Due to the latter, people who plan to do the full shebang at some point or close to it (headers, exhaust, intake, manifold, throttle body, cams etc.) may benefit more from the long tube.
Other considerations are ease of installation. Shorties are easier to install versus longtube (which you have to finesse a bit). The MSDS you have to cut into the alternator shielding to work. The longtube relocates the alternator and supplies you a longer belt for the change. Correct me if I am wrong, but the MSDS headers were designed for the Duratec engine in general and not specifically tuned for our car with exception to the y-pipe connector. The CP-E headers were designed from the ground up for our car and were tuned for our car. Not trying to make one a negative over the other, just pointing out where they came from (and I may be wrong on this). Either way you will get gains, it just depends on how and where you want the gains and what are your future plans when it comes to mods.
As for the CP-E headers not being trouble free, that was with the earlier versions and I believe that problem has been solved and remedied in all newer headers (part of the reason you don't see them in stock, the final touches are being put on the design before being sent back out to Kooks for manufacture, they may have already been sent out). The issue was due to the cats rattling apart, which was fixed by another set of cats that were placed to close together and rattled, and are now done with spun cats and the distance between them should not cause them to touch. I hope this helps and welcome to the community.
:seeya:
Paul
im pretty sure that most of the kinks have been worked out on the cp-e headers. as i do have them and the newest y pipe. The only problem ive run into is a rattling heat shield since the up pipe runs very close to a heatshield that is completely useless i dunno why mazda even put it on so i took off the heatshield and so far ive been rattle free..
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2,892 Posts
Or you can just buy MSDS headers and the y-pipe for 500 bucks and have a machine shop weld about a 9-12" section onto that. I was quoted on that possibility plus the custom labor to mold the headers to fit my 06 6s for 550 less than what cp-e wants for just the headers and y-pipe.
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2,912 Posts
Looks like CP-E wants to make headers for the 6s by end of summer. They have the fixtures from Kooks so it looks like they are serious on making more headers... just a matter of when.
http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1057640
http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1057640
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2,664 Posts
the link you posted doesn't work for some reason.
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297 Posts
My advice if you choose the CP-E headers, DON'T BUY THERE Y-PIPE...You'll eventually cough up more money to eliminate the kinks...Like me, I was forced to re-fabricate another one and it ain't cheap-basically I spent $500 for nothing. Just my opinion.
Getting old I guess.
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2,912 Posts
I just noticed this now.
The MSDS headers appear to sample 1 cylinder for measuring Oxygen content.
[attachment=27077:msds_o2_sensors.JPG]
Whereas the CP-E ones appear to more closely match stock, which is to measure O2 content at the collector point where all cylinders merge.
[attachment=27078:cp_e_upstream.JPG]
I wonder if the 'averaging' of the MSDS setup is not as accurate/effective as the CP-E ones. I've seen other header setups and most long tube setups I've come across put the O2 sensors at the collector point.
Not sure if this is a big deal or not, but just one difference to note... I guess the only way to tell would be to get them both on a dyno and check our air/fuel readings....
The MSDS headers appear to sample 1 cylinder for measuring Oxygen content.
[attachment=27077:msds_o2_sensors.JPG]
Whereas the CP-E ones appear to more closely match stock, which is to measure O2 content at the collector point where all cylinders merge.
[attachment=27078:cp_e_upstream.JPG]
I wonder if the 'averaging' of the MSDS setup is not as accurate/effective as the CP-E ones. I've seen other header setups and most long tube setups I've come across put the O2 sensors at the collector point.
Not sure if this is a big deal or not, but just one difference to note... I guess the only way to tell would be to get them both on a dyno and check our air/fuel readings....
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Does anyone have a sound clip of the cp-e headers? Are they obnoxiously loud? I'd like to get headers, but if theres a serious noise increase I'll probably avoid them.
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