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Discussion Starter #1
I'm curious about the internals used in our motors, and can't seem to find the information I'm looking for. I know that our rods & crank are made from forged steel, but what about the pistons? I'm assuming they're not forged, but are they hypereutectic or just your basic casting? Aluminum or steel? Also does the block use an open, semi-closed or closed deck? If anyone has cracked a block open I would be very interested in what they found. I'm just trying to figure out what the potential "weak point" in our blocks is going to be when people start pushing the horsepower limits. Any guesses on what the upper limits (horsepower) of our blocks on stock internals is going to be, with proper tuning of course? Anyone think our MZR motors will be at least on par with an EJ257 (STI) or 4G63 (EVO) motors in terms of tuning potential on a stock block?

Also does anyone have any info on if our bearings/valvetrain can sustain higher RPMs (at least redline) without failing? I know that's not really an issue right now, as stock, power falls off around 5500 rpms, but when people start adding larger turbos and taking advantage of their upper power bands, is spinning a rod or valve tap/float going to become a concern?

I know these are difficult questions to answer, but I'm hoping someone can shed some light :)
 

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People are already running the turbo to 17psi at redline...so at least with the stock turbo its possible...whether or not there is a huge power drop off I am going to try and answer that question when I put my car on the dyno after the EBC is installed on my car...
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I look forward to your results. I was pretty sure it was possible to run the stock K04 at 17psi to redline, although my concern is that it might be out of it's efficiency range, heating the intake charge temperatures and increasing the chances of detonation. When I mentioned taking advantage of upper rpms with larger turbos, I was refering to turbos that would make peak power closer to redline, as even making full boost all the way to redline, I'm sure the K04 would make peak power around or south of 6k. However it will be interesting to see how far the K04 can be pushed.

When you're getting dyno'd with an EBC, if you could please see if they can give you a print out of your A/F ratios, IDC's and EGT's if it's possible. For accurate A/F & EGT results you'll need to have your exhaust manifold or downpipe tapped, however even a tailpipe A/F would be useful.
 

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I look forward to your results. I was pretty sure it was possible to run the stock K04 at 17psi to redline, although my concern is that it might be out of it's efficiency range, heating the intake charge temperatures and increasing the chances of detonation. When I mentioned taking advantage of upper rpms with larger turbos, I was refering to turbos that would make peak power closer to redline, as even making full boost all the way to redline, I'm sure the K04 would make peak power around or south of 6k. However it will be interesting to see how far the K04 can be pushed.

When you're getting dyno'd with an EBC, if you could please see if they can give you a print out of your A/F ratios, IDC's and EGT's if it's possible. For accurate A/F & EGT results you'll need to have your exhaust manifold or downpipe tapped, however even a tailpipe A/F would be useful.
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I know the mustang dyno they are using has the ability monitor almost anything you can think of on the car. Most of them being I believe the IAT, A/F, EGT, and I'm pretty sure it can monitor timing and a bunch of other things, basically makes the car look like a patient on an operating table...
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I know the mustang dyno they are using has the ability monitor almost anything you can think of on the car. Most of them being I believe the IAT, A/F, EGT, and I'm pretty sure it can monitor timing and a bunch of other things, basically makes the car look like a patient on an operating table... [/b]
Yeah when I had my WRX dyno tuned is was on a Mustang dyno (MZM Performance in Austin, TX) when I was stationed at Ft. Hood, TX. They gave me a copy of my A/F ratios from the tailpipe, but since I still had a cat (TurboXS hi-flow) my readings weren't as accurate as they would have been if I had tapped my headers/up-pipe/downpipe. Same goes for EGT's.

When I had my WRX tuned my A/F's were between 10.7-11.1:1 all the way to redline, tuned nice and conservatively, until shortly after when my fuel pressure regulator hose slipped off under 19psi of boost from a VF34... :( a little bit of audible detonation, which led to a cracked ringland on cylinder #4. Looking back I really wish I would have installed more gauges lol, but I guess that's life, live and learn. Sorry kind of got off topic.
 

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Yeah I actually have an A/F guage as well, so with boost, A/F guage and oil pressure hopefully I can keep catastrophic failure in check, :)
 

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Yeah I actually have an A/F guage as well, so with boost, A/F guage and oil pressure hopefully I can keep catastrophic failure in check, :)
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I hope it is a wideband A/F gauge, becuase if isn't a wideband, then it is just a "Knight Rider" light. :p
 

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I'm curious about the internals used in our motors, and can't seem to find the information I'm looking for. I know that our rods & crank are made from forged steel, but what about the pistons? I'm assuming they're not forged, but are they hypereutectic or just your basic casting? Aluminum or steel? Also does the block use an open, semi-closed or closed deck? If anyone has cracked a block open I would be very interested in what they found. I'm just trying to figure out what the potential "weak point" in our blocks is going to be when people start pushing the horsepower limits. Any guesses on what the upper limits (horsepower) of our blocks on stock internals is going to be, with proper tuning of course? Anyone think our MZR motors will be at least on par with an EJ257 (STI) or 4G63 (EVO) motors in terms of tuning potential on a stock block?

Also does anyone have any info on if our bearings/valvetrain can sustain higher RPMs (at least redline) without failing? I know that's not really an issue right now, as stock, power falls off around 5500 rpms, but when people start adding larger turbos and taking advantage of their upper power bands, is spinning a rod or valve tap/float going to become a concern?

I know these are difficult questions to answer, but I'm hoping someone can shed some light :)
[/b]

A couple things...

Like you said, the rods and crank are both forged steel, so they'll likely hold up well with a good amount of power. The weak link is probably the pistons, since they're just cast aluminum. Inline blocks are typically pretty robust, so I'd imagine it'll will be fine too. Though, I'm just speculating.

Also, valvetrain instability (ie. valve float) is usually the product of overspinning an engine beyond the factory redline. In other words, I don't think you'll have any valvetrain problems while spinning your MZR to redline, no matter what kind of power you're making (within reason). The same goes for the bearings. As long as there is adequate oil flow, and there isn't any detonation, there shouldn't be a problem. Since the engine was designed to live at redline for a short period of time, you should be fine.

One thing to remember is that no one is going to get close to grenading the MZR until someone comes up with some kind of fuel upgrade. I don't know of anyone who has exceeded the fuel systems capabilities yet, but I'd bet that you'll run out fo fuel before anything in the motor lets go.

/My two cents.
 

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^ agreed, upgrades to our fule system will be rare and costly, IMO 90% of MS6 owners will not find it a good cost/benifit ratio to upgrade any time soon thus the limiting factor is most likely going to be fuel not internals.
 

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^How do you know? What proof do you have? I hate when you guys throw out speculation like this without proof...
 

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^How do you know? What proof do you have? I hate when you guys throw out speculation like this without proof...
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People resort to speculation because no one (that we know of) has reached the fuel systems limits, so as to report how much power it's capable of. How can anyone say for sure when no one knows??

Contrary to popular belief, rotating assemblies are subjected to the most force not during the combustion stroke, but while accelerating at the top and bottom of its stroke. In other words, if you keep the operating range of the engine the same, you'd have to create a pretty sizable power increase to destroy the bottom end. This is of course assuming that the engine is tuned well.

To create a sizable power increase, you need a lot of fuel. I can't imagine that Mazda went through the trouble to ensure that the fuel system would support, say, 400hp. But since we're not revving our engines any higher than the stock rev limiter, the inertial forces at TDC and BDC don't change appreciably.
 

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Exactly my point, so why sit here and tell anyone, oh the fuel system will be the limiting factor on the amount of power you can produce, I mean honestly who can really say what difference direct injection makes on power support for our application? Who has the expertise to say yes, the pump is insufficient and the injectors are too small?
 

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Exactly my point, so why sit here and tell anyone, oh the fuel system will be the limiting factor on the amount of power you can produce, I mean honestly who can really say what difference direct injection makes on power support for our application? Who has the expertise to say yes, the pump is insufficient and the injectors are too small?
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I never said that what I said should be taken as gospel. I guess you missed the part where I said:

/My two cents.
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I've worked on many cars before, and judging from past experience, I've made an educated guess about this one. Would you prefer that people don't discuss and debate this topic at all?

Moreover, direct injection will have a negligible difference on the power potential. I don't care if you're carbed or EFI, you can only make so much power with a given amount of fuel. Period.
 

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^How do you know? What proof do you have? I hate when you guys throw out speculation like this without proof...
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Fair enough, show me a cheap and readily availibe fuel system upgrade and you prove me wrong ;)

P.S. I stated most likely because few if any stock fuel systems are able to handle an additional 30% more power. And I stand by my staetment; with a fuel system found in only 3 cars (all using the same motor) why WOULDENT you think injector upgrades would be expensive? Have you priced a stock injector? Either way secondary injectors might be a cheap and easy solution but that i a piggy back, not an upgrade... again: show me a cheap and readily availibe fuel system upgrade and you prove me wrong :shrug:

P.P.S. when you agreed with Katter he ALSO stated he dosent see why mazda would make a stock system on a 274 BHP car capable of fueling 400 HP, thats kind of agreeing with me isn't it? :huh:
 

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Where did u see that the pistons were cast?
[/b]

Bah, I hate claiming something without proof to back it up :irate:

I swear I read somewhere that the engine had cast pistons, but I can't find where anymore. If I find it later I'll edit this post with a link.

But, if you read literature about the 2.3l MZR, it'll say something along the lines of, "Forged steel crankshaft and connecting rods...and full floating lightweight aluminum pistons." They don't mention "forged" and "pistons" in the same breath like they do the connecting rods and crankshaft.

Example:

"Key engine components include aluminum block and head construction with forged steel internal components — crankshaft and connecting rods — for long-lasting durability, while balance shafts help eliminate noise and vibration."

http://media.ford.com/mazda/article_displa...amp;make_id=227

(I know its for the SPEED3, but still :p )
 

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This is what Ford/Mazda said about the 6 when it came out:

Other enhanced components in the engine include steel connecting rods and crankshaft, increased diameters of connecting rod pins, optimized rod shape and the introduction of full floating pistons. Each and every moving part is stronger, more rigid and more durable. Literally hundreds of part numbers were changed from the standard MZR non-turbo engine in developing this powerplant.

from: Media.Ford.com
 

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Discussion Starter #18
A couple things...

Like you said, the rods and crank are both forged steel, so they'll likely hold up well with a good amount of power. The weak link is probably the pistons, since they're just cast aluminum. Inline blocks are typically pretty robust, so I'd imagine it'll will be fine too. Though, I'm just speculating.

Also, valvetrain instability (ie. valve float) is usually the product of overspinning an engine beyond the factory redline. In other words, I don't think you'll have any valvetrain problems while spinning your MZR to redline, no matter what kind of power you're making (within reason). The same goes for the bearings. As long as there is adequate oil flow, and there isn't any detonation, there shouldn't be a problem. Since the engine was designed to live at redline for a short period of time, you should be fine.

One thing to remember is that no one is going to get close to grenading the MZR until someone comes up with some kind of fuel upgrade. I don't know of anyone who has exceeded the fuel systems capabilities yet, but I'd bet that you'll run out fo fuel before anything in the motor lets go.

/My two cents. [/b]
I agree completely, however I'm still interested in the overall potential of the stock block, as I'm sure the aftermarket will eventually come up with a solution to our fuel limiting issues. With so many companies switching over to direct injection, it's almost a forgone conclusion, the price this is going to cost on the other hand... that's a whole different conversation ;) No one has offered an upgraded turbo as of yet, and until companies start bringing fuel & tuning solutions to the table, I think that's a good bit down the road. What I was questioning was the overall potential of the stock longblock with bolt-on modifications (to include turbos, fuel systems, intake & exhaust components, intercoolers, ignition, tuning devices and maybe even a set of mild grind cams, even though they're technically part of the longblock ect).

On another note, as far as the stock fuel system is concerned, I would be extremely interested if anyone has had their car dyno'd and could possibly shed some light on what our IDC's are at stock. I've heard of cars running rich from the factory while still maintaining under 70% IDC's, giving plenty of overhead for future modifications. Also keep in mind, that while there may not be any current injector solution, switching over to a larger fuel pump and/or controllable fuel pressure regulator can yield significant drops in your IDC's giving you additional overhead on stock injectors. Case in point, a good friend of mine (who also happened to have a WRX), had his car road tuned with a UTEC after we swapped in a Deadbolt Super16G, and on 565cc injectors his IDC's were in the mid 90% range, which is pushing it in my opinion. He was also fairly uncomfortable with it, but was happy with the results and didn't want to detune the car, so his tuner offered him another solution, and they ended up "crushing" the fuel pressure regulator (think putting your thumb over a running hose, how the pressure increases, same effect). When they took the car back out on the road, his IDC's instantly went down into the mid 70%.

I think there might be a possibility of our cars having a decent amount of overhead while retaining the stock injectors, but only time will tell. A couple of cars in particular make me wonder, as both the EVO and 2006 WRX are both capable of putting out over 100bhp with stock injectors on pump gas. If someone wanted to see a car capable of making over 30% more power on the stock fuel system, here you go:
http://www.vishnutuning.com/wrx06_stage2_v350.htm

^^^Upping the factory rating of 230bhp to 350bhp with just the additions of a larger turbo, turboback exhaust & a reflashed ECU. Completely stock fuel system. Also here's a package for the EVO making 100bhp over stock with a fuel pump being the only upgraded fuel component:
http://www.vishnutuning.com/evo_Stage1_v390.htm

There's a possibility that Mazda might have included similiar overhead in their stock fuel systems, I guess only time will tell. I'm looking forward to the results though, whatever they may be.
 

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IIRC, we have variable duty injectors, and we for sure have 2 fuel pumps. The question at hand is who could we get to develope upgraded variable duty injectors that'll squirt 2000psi? Is it even possible? Or could the variable factor give us much greater capabilities than we have been speculating?
 

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Bah, I hate claiming something without proof to back it up :irate:

I swear I read somewhere that the engine had cast pistons, but I can't find where anymore. If I find it later I'll edit this post with a link.

But, if you read literature about the 2.3l MZR, it'll say something along the lines of, "Forged steel crankshaft and connecting rods...and full floating lightweight aluminum pistons." They don't mention "forged" and "pistons" in the same breath like they do the connecting rods and crankshaft.

Example:

"Key engine components include aluminum block and head construction with forged steel internal components — crankshaft and connecting rods — for long-lasting durability, while balance shafts help eliminate noise and vibration."

http://media.ford.com/mazda/article_displa...amp;make_id=227



(I know its for the SPEED3, but still :p )
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Your right, makes sense to me as well, they would have metioned it along the lines with the other forged parts. But thats not to say that the "cast" pistons couldnt be very strong. We all know that there are tons of differnt casting and forged methods. Come to think of it, do any cars out there actually have forged pistons stock?
As long as the rods are forged and strong, im happy
 
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