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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
In a nutshell, I'm not holding idle pressure well (200-300 PSI) and haven't since my 1st hpfp failed about a month ago, despite 2 other pumps.

Here's the timeline on the pumps:

1. Got a PTP pump (pre-assembled), and my old mechanic installed it. I was careful about the break in period, and it worked great.
*Idle Pressure 400-500 PSI
*WOT Pressure 1,700-1,900 PSI

2. No problems until two months later when I was tuning my ebcs. I was taking a WOT log, and I caught both the ebcs dying, and the fuel pump failing mid-shift.
*Idle Pressure now only ~175-300
*Not holding WOT pressure

3. Didn't drive it much at all, and sent in pump #1 for a replacement. When I went to install pump #2, I was wiping down inside where the pump attaches, and I pulled the cam follower out a bit. I had no clue it was in there, and I just looked at it very briefly, and put it back in. I lubed the inside, and installed pump #2.

4. I performed the (new) break in procedures. I went to drive it, and I got fuel cut almost immediately at 4K... PSI dropped to 50. I pulled over, let it idle, slowly held revs, and repeated. I started driving and it cut again. Pulled over, repeated the idle/revving and then continued to drive with no problems. However, my idle pressure was all low. 200-300 PSI.
*Idle Pressure ~175-300 PSI
*WOT pressure seemed fine, but when I called they said the low pressure isn't right, and I sent that pump in for my $ back and a stock pump

5. I installed the stock pump last night (which does not require a break in period), but I let it idle for 5 min-10 mins anyways (no smoke at least, lol). After the car warmed up, idle pressure is low again ~200-300 PSI. It holds presssure great cruising. EDIT: The pump can hold ~1,650 PSI under slow acceleration to about 5K rpms. I tried one WOT pull on July 1, and fuel pressure quickly plummeted to 400 PSI at 5K when I jammed in the clutch (this is a stock pump). It only holds ~300 PSI under engine breaking, which was the same with the other bad pumps.

Forzda says my cam follower may be damaged. He said to pull the pump and follower, and inspect all, including the camshaft lobe that runs the pump.

What the hell is going on here? Everything was fine until the first pump shit the bed, and I haven't been able to hold idle pressure since despite 2 pumps. Could the first pump siezing have CAUSED damage to the cam follower??

**Is the cam follower directional? That is, does it fit in there in a certain orientation?** I didn't think it did when I slide it part way out that one time and put it back in.

**What should I be looking for in terms of a damaged follower and camshaft lobe? Scratches, nicks, and/or metal shavings??

I'm gonna pull the pump after work to try to see, so I would appreciate a quick response if you can :).


Thanks guys!
 
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Sorry I don't have much to contribute. But 2 PTP pumps + 1 new stock pump have the same low idle pressure after the first pump "broke". So it looks like something else was damaged. Maybe the experts on this forum can give you some ideas if you can post some pictures of the cam follower. Or call Forzda!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Okay, so I took the pump out again today, and had a little photo shoot! The cam follower definitely has a tiny nick in it, but I'm not 100% on the cam lobe. Here's a bunch of pics of the follower, lobe, and a vid of the lobe.

Follower still in


Inside follower:



Nick side of follower facing lobe :(




Cam Lobe Pics:













And short vid of lobe (in HD if that helps):



Looks like I'm Fucked! lol At some angles it looks fine... it was hard to get good pics, but I did the best I could in there.

What do you guys think? Is the cam ruined or is it just the cam follower or both?

Thanks fellas!
 
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that kinda of stuff is always hard to tell in pictures. but from what i can tell it doesnt look bad besides that nick. can you feel it with your fingernail?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
that kinda of stuff is always hard to tell in pictures. but from what i can tell it doesnt look bad besides that nick. can you feel it with your fingernail?
I didn't poke at it with my fingernail as I didn't want to make it any worse. It looked like a small scratch, but I rubbed my finger over it, and it was smooth.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Is is okay to drive the car like this, or will that cause more damage? I was supposed to see my buddy to do the IM cleaning and OCC install and he's like 25 miles away.
 

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Hmmmm... SOMETHING caused that nick on the follower as it is NOT "normal", but the wear surface (center of the follower face) doesn't look bad at all. The cam lobe does show a slight scuff where the follower contacts it, but not "bad". You may have let some foreign material in the hole while the pump was out for a while?

BTW, I finally heard the vid you sent and that clicking noise is NOT the same as the "rattling" fuel pumps. I fully esxpected to see the follower failed horribly or the HPFP piston damaged. I need to see clearly down the inside of the cam follower where the piston sits. Also take some good photos of the pump piston/keeper end for a look-see.
 
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Is is okay to drive the car like this, or will that cause more damage? I was supposed to see my buddy to do the IM cleaning and OCC install and he's like 25 miles away.

25 miles isn't going to kill it any more than now, but please apply some assembly lube to the piston, cam, and cam follower contact surfaces and inside the follower.

Is that "new" pump truely new, or is it a core from someone else?
 
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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
after fuel cut, did you "reset" your ecu (terminal off battery)?
No, I just put the clutch in (first instinct), and then pulled right over and let it idle, and did the rev business as I mentioned.

Hmmmm... SOMETHING caused that nick on the follower as it is NOT "normal", but the wear surface (center of the follower face) doesn't look bad at all. The cam lobe does show a slight scuff where the follower contacts it, but not "bad". You may have let some foreign material in the hole while the pump was out for a while?

BTW, I finally heard the vid you sent and that clicking noise is NOT the same as the "rattling" fuel pumps. I fully esxpected to see the follower failed horribly or the HPFP piston damaged. I need to see clearly down the inside of the cam follower where the piston sits. Also take some good photos of the pump piston/keeper end for a look-see.
No way foreign material got in there. I covered the whole well w/ a clean white tee, closed the hood, and put my car cover on. The car stayed just like that until I got the "next" pump. Keep in mind that after the 1st pump shit the bed, my fuel pressure has never recovered at idle. If the cam lobe whacked the cam follower when the pump croaked, no fuel pump is gonna help with that. The inside of the follower looked okay, but I only took a couple pics.

If you want to clearly see, hop on the red eye to BOS, lol. I did take some several pics of the pump that Lex asked for. Not sure if these will help, but they looked okay to me:























EDIT: Here's a much larger pic of the inside of the cam follower. It's all I have atm:




Finally, the second pump I got (the one before this) had the same low fuel pressure at idle, but it didn't make any noise. Can I drive the car like this or am I going to cause more damage? Not sure what I need to do about this??
 

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...... Keep in mind that after the 1st pump shit the bed, my fuel pressure has never recovered at idle. If the cam lobe whacked the cam follower when the pump croaked, no fuel pump is gonna help with that. The inside of the follower looked okay, but I only took a couple pics. ........Finally, the second pump I got (the one before this) had the same low fuel pressure at idle, but it didn't make any noise.
Yeah, I'm reviewing the scenario and it sure sounds like the "new" pump is the noise issue and the low fuel pressure at idle is something else. If it was me, I would check for the correct VDC at the HPFP solenoid connector AND at the EBCS solenoid connector. I haven't checked the wiring diagram, but the EBCS failure may be related to the HPFP low pressure. They both operate on the DC voltage and may be on the same circuit in the engine bay harness. I'll dig out the WD and see if there is a connection.

Well Doogie, the good part is we'll all learn the details of another HPFP failure mode!


Can I drive the car like this or am I going to cause more damage? Not sure what I need to do about this??
Sure you can drive it and I recommend it. Make SURE you disconnect and insulate (tape them well) the EBCS wires to ensure they aren't touching anything or themselves while I do some data research....
 
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Damn Douge, sorry to hear this! Hope all turns out well.
 
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Discussion Starter #14
Yeah, I'm reviewing the scenario and it sure sounds like the "new" pump is the noise issue and the low fuel pressure at idle is something else. If it was me, I would check for the correct VDC at the HPFP solenoid connector AND at the EBCS solenoid connector. I haven't checked the wiring diagram, but the EBCS failure may be related to the HPFP low pressure. They both operate on the DC voltage and may be on the same circuit in the engine bay harness. I'll dig out the WD and see if there is a connection.

Well Doogie, the good part is we'll all learn the details of another HPFP failure mode!

Sure you can drive it and I recommend it. Make SURE you disconnect and insulate (tape them well) the EBCS wires to ensure they aren't touching anything or themselves while I do some data research....
I'll disconnect and tape up the ebcs in the am before I leave, and bring the multi-meter along to check both tom. I'll be at my buddies from 9-2, so I may ring you if need be! I gotta read those "how to's" now.. this fuel pump business jammed me up time wise! Thanks for checking this out quick.

Thanks bro! And thanks for taking a 'timely' look-see! I found a 22mm at the Sears near my buddies... the last one in stock! Better actually be there in am!

Damn Douge, sorry to hear this! Hope all turns out well.
Thanks man, me too! It'll be nice to get the OCC in finally, despite all this hpfp business!!
 

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Did you bad mouth your car in any way? She is very sensitive.
 
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Discussion Starter #16
Update:

I checked all the fuses today (just in case) and even swapped a couple 30's around to be sure... no difference. The pump holds pressure when accelerating slowly. However, when I stomped on it, fuel pressure dropped like a mofo, and went to like 450 at 5K, when I jammed in the clutch.

Forzda now thinks when the first pump shit the bed, some metal shavings got caught up in the hard fuel line. He had me check the fuel press at idle and then disconnect the harness to the hpfp. It went from ~200 (175-275) at idle, at temp, to 58-78 PSI. I only did it for a few seconds to see. I think he said it should be at 70, which is about where it was hovering. I was a little distracted as I had a couple pops and was on my way out to dinner, but Forzda is confident I have some debris in my hard fuel line, and need it replaced.

I also tested the voltage to the hpfp, and it's getting 12. MatchingSilver said that it might not be getting that under load. I was going to try to test the tank pump voltage, but it didn't happen. I yanked the back seat out, and was talking off this plate, but it looked like it was gonna rain, and I said fuck it. Plus, my buddy and I already pulled the intake mani, cleaned it, and installed the OCC this morning, so I had enough, lol.
 

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you might want to pull off the housing from the side of the head and check it / clean it out. (for metal bits)
 
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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
LONG ass post, but time to set the facts straight. AVOID PTP pumps

View attachment 75596
Doogie,
Please go here High Pressure Fuel Pump, OMG GUYS!!! - Mazdaspeed Forums and tell John what a fucking idiot he is... and point him to your thread with all the photos. I can't believe how msfail has gone even further into the toilet with really BAD technical info...
I definitely will when I get a chance. I'm down the Cape visiting w/ my gf for my bday, so I'm just trying to relax. The really funny thing is that I checked the time he posted that thread on msf, and compared it to his emails he sent me today. He was trying to blame my "lack" of a cam follower (which he calls a "puck" for whatever reason) in the emails. I didn't know wtf he was talking about as you, skates, and myself had never heard of a "puck." When I finally realized it was the cam follower, I called him out on it, and said that the cam follower ("puck") as he calls it, is definitely in there. And I already took the pictures to prove it in this thread!! LOL Funny thing #2 is he was claiming that people don't know what they're doing and are messing up the hpfp install. I actually did a pretty detailed "how to" on it, that I posted on 3 forums, including msf. I had a few people hit the "thanks" button, and I had a couple PM's thanking me for doing that. I just followed the directions without pics, but thought noobs would appreciate the "how to" with pics, and told them things to be careful of. So, IMHO, that shoots him down on that accusation.

In the thread on msf, he mentioned how he had to refund 4 pumps, and two to one person, and had to "eat" the costs of those internals, and sending back a new core from Mazda. He is referring to me, and saying it was my lack of a cam follower... once again, dead wrong. I give him some credit for not naming me specifically, but not really, because he is so wrong on this it's actually pretty sad. The real funny thing is he posted that thread before I emailed him back saying this in regards to the "puck" that no one has heard of:

John, That is the cam follower, and that is not missing. Never heard it referred to as a 'puck' before. Yes, it's a metal ring, hollow on the end facing the pump, with holes on the outer edge of the base on the side facing the cam. It goes cam, cam follower ('puck'), and pump. Nothing is missing.
He did not reply to that last email. Probably because he realized he was wrong, and it was after his BS post on msf. He also said the following regarding the "puck" he kept claiming I was missing:

That is what the problem is, you are missing a part to your fuel pump assembly and that is what is causing the pumps to go bad. I would quit talking to your friends and find someone who knows what they are doing. Look around and you will find what I am talking about. There is a metal pusher that goes between the pump and the cam, if this is missing… you will have continued failure no matter what pump you install.


I LOL'd at "stop talking to your friends and find someone who knows what they are doing." Yeah, two mechanics that special in high performance builds with decades of experience, two engineers, SU Mark, and several extremely knowledgeable folks on the forums must all be dead wrong and "not know what they are doing." I guess he didn't realize I was getting advice from my friends on here and other forms, and not idiots on msf. The only one who doesn't have a clue is John. He tries to blame everyone but himself, and his shit pumps.

I had three people say that when the first pump failed at WOT near redline, it could have resulted in metal shaving go down into the hard fuel line under the pump, and possibly (I hope not) into the fuel rail and possibly the injectors. But don't take my word for it, I have the log to prove this failure at WOT (log attached, I actually caught it in a datalog). AND, this was after two months of the pump working great. When I talked to him about the first pump dying, he said "yeah, we've been having some pumps fail after working fine for two months... I don't know what is causing this." He also mentioned one dudes pump having metal shavings inside the pump, and he had "no idea how they got in there." Hmmmm maybe it was due to catastrophic failure of his shitty pumps??

Yeah, it wasn't those great pumps. I must have fucked up the install, or it was the missing "puck" that was never missing. He then said it could be the pressure sensor for the fuel that is causing all my low pressure problems. Well, wrong again. Forzda was kind enough to dig up the shop manual to test this, which I did while talking to him, and it was fine as well. So we ruled that out. I also checked all the fuses for good measure (fine), as well as the voltage going to the hpfp (12V). I talked to SU Mark today for a while discussing the saga, and he agreed w/ Forzda and said when that pump failed you probably got metal bits/shavings in your hard fuel line.

So, the next step is to call him out on his inability to accept responsibility for the damage cause to my car from his shit pump crapping out. Now I have to yank the battery, TIP +SF to take out the hard fuel line and see what's in there.

PLEASE avoid these pumps and the double talk, and misinformation. Buy the CPE pump, or the KMD internals. Learn from my mistake of buying ANYTHING from PTP because their products are shit, and when they fail, he'll try blaming you, despite all the evidence pointing the other way.

EDIT: I forgot to attach the log of the fuel pump failing at WOT:



 
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