[M-006]

Is the V6 overrated or underpowered?

I've been reading some discussions on this board and some on the Countour boards and the dyno numbers
of the 6 with the V6 are really too low to not be taken seriously. Why are they that low?
At 20% loss the automatic should see 176hp and the wheels, it doesn't. At 15% the manual should see 187hp, and it doesn't.

I'd like to ask what octane fuel is being used in these tested cars? Also, if low octane is being used, as is instucted, is it possible that the numbers listed by Mazda are from using higher octane?

I just find the dyno numbers to be too low for the stated output. The new 3.0 Duratec tuned by Ford is putting out better HP and torque numbers in the Mondeo.

I think Mazda needs to answer this issue. If I'm paying more for more power, then I want that power and I don't want less.
If some of you have dyno numbers please post them and post the fuel that was used and obviously auto or manual.
Also, note, that in automatics there can be a BIG difference in power output if the trans and fluid are hot. The hotter the trans gets the less power it might provide.

Maybe we can get some data together and if the data warrants it, we can send a letter to Mazda and ask for an answer.

Tome

 

[CzechMate]

Replying to Topic 'HP and torque numbers'

From the few dynos I've seen, the V6 seems to be overrated by about 10 hp. But from a statistical standpoint, there's not much of a case, due to low sample size, lack of controlled setting and other unknown variables.

But I suppose a letter to Mazda USA might be a good idea, just to see what (if anything) they have to say. Maybe we could put one together as a group of M6 owners and send it in.

 

[M-006]

Reading Topic: HP an

Yes. That's the idea. We need more sampling for a better understanding of what's going on.
I have suggested some variables that could be resonded to.

Tome

 

[DennyA]

Reading Topic: HP and torque numbers

Oh, c'mon, Mazda would *never* release a car with less actual horsepower than advertised!

http://lang.motorway.com/home/articles/mazmiata.asp
QUOTE

However, Mazda boasted the 2001 edition would obtain 155 h.p., only to find after dyno testing that it achieved only 142 h.p.[/b]

Or would they....

 

[Ruefus]

Reading Topic: HP and torque numbers

Dyno ANY engine at sea-level, you'll get a certain number.

Then box both the dyno and car up and truck them to Denver. Now that you're a mile above sea-level, the identical car on the identical dyno will be noticably down on power. There is nothing you can do about it.

Comparing dyno numbers is really sketchy to begin with - no two will give you the same numbers, even if they're next to each other. Then add elevation, different cars, motors and different people and you can't really make a comparison.

 

[yellSoIwX]

Reading Topic: HP and torque numbers

Doesn't the manufacturing process affect the performance of the motor as well? What I mean is, since these motors are mass produced, Ford and Mazda set tolerances and if these motors are within spec, they pass and are thrown into the car. Now, in the case of much more expensive cars, e.g. Ferrari, the motors are given more attention to detail and are manufactured with tighter tolerances. Maybe Mazda spec'd the V6 M6 with a 'blueprinted' V6?? Someone correct me if I am wrong....

 

[M-006]

Reading Topic: HP and torque numbers

If all the cars are falling below advertised HP output, then the actual "spec" should be listed lower than 220hp.

As far as sea level and mountains, yes I agree. But, that's obvious. There are corrections that can be made to dyno readouts to flatten the variation. However, it's a good point and another parameter to consider when people list their dyno numbers.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with collecting data just for fun and investigation.

Tome

 

[CzechMate]

Reading Topic: HP and torque numbers

Yes, every dyno's different and see level, tempperature and other factors play a role. But the numbers I've seen were "corrected" meaning they were adjusted to these factors. It's not an exact science by any means and like I said, it cannot really be used to make a strong case, but asking Mazda about it won't hurt anything.

 

[Kristoff]

Reading Topic: HP and torque numbers

Where have you guys seen real dyno numbers?

And, does it feel underpowered to you?

 

[CzechMate]

Reading Topic: HP and torque numbers

A couple members here got theirs done...do a search for it, I'm too lazy to find the url's.

As for feeling underpowered - no, but the point is if they advertise 220 hp, that's what it should be getting. Really, though, what matters to me much more is the torque curve - peak #'s don't really mean much. But still, if they say xxx hp at xxx rpm, that's what I should get, even if I don't really care.

 

[DennyA]

Reading Topic: HP and torque numbers

Given the speed at which I can take off -- and the number of times I spun the front tires in automatic mode the first couple of days -- I am quite horsepoewr-satisfied.

The Contour board arguments are hilarious. These guys compare horsepower dyno numbers like gaming geeks compare overclocked megahertz. In the end, fast is fast.

 

[NY Mazda6]

Reading Topic: HP and torque numbers

Tru

 

[chindo]

Reading Topic: HP and torque numbers

There was a big deal when people found out that Hyundai overrated the output of the Tiburon. I dont think it's a matter of wanting more power because most of you have said that the 6 has plenty of go. But it kinda hurts when a company or a person lies to you.

 

[White 6s]

Replying to Topic 'HP and torque numbers'

my dyno's

http://www.massimoperformance.com/images/e.../withairbox.JPG
http://www.massimoperformance.com/images/e...ed/noairbox.JPG

 

[LBJay]

Reading Topic: HP and torque numbers

My post from a previous thread:


Dyno numbers are only useful for tuning. Do not get hung up on dyno numbers!!!

Two must reads if you are going to dyno your car just to see what numbers you get.

Puma Racing ENGINE DYNAMOMETERS

Dyno Thoughts and HP Losses

Dynos are a tuning tool!

 

[LBJay]

Replying to Topic 'HP and torque numbers'

QUOTE

Originally posted by yellSoIwX
Maybe Mazda spec'd the V6 M6 with a 'blueprinted' V6?? ....[/b]

Mazda tests on an engine brake dyno, under very controled conditions and strict guidelines (SAE). Those guidelines specify how the engine is to be set up and what engine accessories will and will not be attached.


Front wheel alignment can cause HP loss on a rolling dyno. Most cars are set up with some toe-in on the front wheels to help the car track straight on the highway. With toe-in or tow-out the HP is not directed straight forward and the two wheels actually work against each other. Loss of a couple of HP.

All the little things like this add up. That's why I say don't get hung up on dyno numbers.

 

[M-006]

Reading Topic: Replying to Topic 'HP and torque numbers'

Well, I wouldn't say we are "hung up" on dyno numbers, but it is a question worth looking into.
Dyno's have been used on other cars to test engine output. Magazines for cars and motorcycles use dyno's as well to determine of engines are putting out what the manufacturer claims. It is a valid test. There appears to be about a 20% loss in drivetrain loss. That is significant and high compared to the norm around 15%.

My inquiry is one of curiosity, that's all. I want to know why the dyno's have been coming up short on power. Is it possible that these engines have been optimized to run on higher octane fuel to achieve the printed HP/torque numbers? Granted, Mazda says the engine will run on low octane, but then, many modern engines with ECU's can compensate for lower octane fuel by retarding timing and losing some power.

My 2000 Mits Eclipse is a 3.0 V6 with 205hp and 205ft lbs. of torque with 9:1 compression and uses 91 octane minimal.
The Mazda 3.0 V6 puts out 220hp and 192ft lbs. of torque with
10:1 compression. It seems that maybe this engine may need
high octane fuel to put out it's maximum power. Maybe.
But, the only way to know would be to test that idea.

I don't have my 6 yet and can't test anything. It would be great if someone with a V6 6 could test this out. Do a dyno run with low octane fuel, then run a tankful of high octane fuel, letting the ECU adjust to that fuel, and then run another dyno run.

Has anyone tried high octane in their V6? Was there a difference?
I just want to know what the story is IF indeed there is a story to tell.
Perhaps we need to use high octane to achieve the marketed/advertised numbers. If so, then Mazda could address that issue. It's possible that they used the low octane fuel recommendation for marketing reasons, maybe, I'm not sure just speculating.

Ford made good on their SVT Cobra when independent dyno testing revealed lower output than advertised. Mazda, I believe, also did something for it's customers that bought their Miata's which were advertised to have more power but didn't. I think there was rebate of some kind or something to that effect. As a consumer it's important to me to get what I pay for. Engine output is a major factor car enthusiasts use in determining which car they will buy, thus it's important to get what you paid for, I think.

I will say I'm very impressed by the V6 engines torque curve. It is very linear and flat from about 2200rpm on up to over 5500rpm, if I remember correctly. That is very impressive and having driven the V6 the dyno confirms what I felt, smooth power and always there.

It's valid discussion and I don't agree that anyone is getting "hung up" on it. Please keep posting your dyno results and make sure you let us know if it is a manual or automatic, corrected or uncorrected numbers, type of fuel used (octane); and of course, any mods that are being tested for.

Tome

 

[Kristoff]

Reading Topic: Replying to Topic 'HP and torque numbers'

I agree.

If nobody is able to post dyno results that show 220 hp then we have a case.

Now, who wants to pull their motor out and slap it on a brake?

 

[M-006]

Reading Topic: Replying to Topic 'HP and torque numbers'

Ha! That would be something, if someone pulled the engine and got a crank HP reading.

Tome

 

[White 6s]

Replying to Topic 'HP and torque numbers'

QUOTE

Originally posted by M-006

Is it possible that these engines have been optimized to run on higher octane fuel to achieve the printed HP/torque numbers?  Granted, Mazda says the engine will run on low octane, but then, many modern engines with ECU's can compensate for lower octane fuel by retarding timing and losing some power.


Has anyone tried high octane in their V6?  Was there a difference?
I just want to know what the story is IF indeed there is a story to tell.
Tome[/b]

as for high octane. i dyno'd with 93 octane in my tank v6 5 spd.
my best 100% stock pull was 174.9 hp and 169.4 tq

brillo's dyno was done on 87 octane and his best pull was 176.3 and 170.7 torque. his only mods were mobil 1 5w30 oil and synthetic trans fluid.

high octane will get u nothing in this car without fuel tuning and trimming the nasty air fuel curve. via a safc or another type piggy back fuel system or standalone. with high octane and fuel tuning you will probably get 6-10 whp. generally the leaner you run, the hotter it runs and more power you make (up to a point)