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Discussion Starter #1
I went autocrossing this past weekend at Warminster, PA. Saturday went to the Philly Novice School and learned to drive in the rain. Great experience. Learned how to induce oversteer on my car as well how to control it! It was such a great feeling. Did this while on the skidpad.

In any case, I went to the autox event on Sunday. The ground was drying up by the time I was running. However the whole time I was running, there were a few times in which I felt the back end sliding out (especially during the slalom) but I was able to correct, however I did spin out twice!

I have the following installed: KSport Coilovers, front and rear sway bars, CPE MAFCi, SSR Comp 17x8 w/ Kumho MX. I had the KSports dial about ¾ from hardest.

Ok this is a two part question.
1) For us FWD, how do we get the rear tires to warm up for better grip? After one or two runs, the fronts were warm but the rears were cold. I suspect this has a lot to do of why my tail felt like giving out and why I spun out twice! (well, that and I lifted :p).
2) I understand the KSport Coilovers aren’t the best. Getting Koni’s at all 4 corners would allow me more much adjustability, but is it really that much better? Is there anything else I can do to my current setup?

Of course, another thing I have to constantly work on is just to be a better driver :D.

Also, the stock brakes sucks!! About halfway into the novice school, you can hear my rear brakes groaning! This happened after this learning event called the house (the cones are setup like a perimeter of a house). People were giving me weird looks as if my car was falling apart. Anyhow, I completely forgot and set my e-brake afterward. What happened? My rear brakes were stuck to my rotors. First time. Luckily one of the guys knew how to get it unstuck. Gotta get my Hawk Pads installed soon.

btw: Tony Savini, who is SCCA last year's Drive of the Year and almost won first place National, rode with me most of the school and taugh me a great deal. He also thought my 6 had a turbo because of the kick at around 3.4k. When I told him, it just has the CPE MAFci, he looked very surprised and really thought I had a turbo. He's coming from a supercharged 05 Mini Cooper Type S. I guess that's a compilment.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I have both RB front and rear sways installed.

I guess I just have to better learn how to control the car better as well as the oversteer.
 

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well, a few things you can do,


you can soften up the rear by turning down those shocks a bit, you can also play with tire pressures.


BUT, with BOTH the front and rear swaybars, the car (especially the v6) has a tendency to understeer, not oversteer.


i honestly think its your driving, you might be braking mid turn, or jerking the wheel a bit hard and upsetting the balance of the car.


the bias of the car should be to understeer as your car is setup now, unless your running tons of psi in the rear.
 

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arch4life +1

Lifting in a turn, or braking mid-turn, will unsettle a neutral car. If you feel the tail going out from under you, smash down on the throttle, it'll force a weight shift to the rear of the car. Then follow fugi's example in the short clip by turning the front wheels to track with the rear. (ie if the tail is going left, turn the front wheels left)



If it really bothers you, just put the stock rear sway back on...shudder.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Most of this feeling is around the hard apex turns and towards the end of the slalom.

Yeah, after giving it some though and reading a bit more on oversteer, it's most likely my driving. Guess I will have to head out to as many autox as I can get to.

Also, no way will I ever put back the stock sways. Don't get me wrong, feeling the oversteer and just learning to control it is a great feeling. Just have to get use to it and know how to use it to my advantage.
 

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I went autocrossing this past weekend at Warminster, PA. Saturday went to the Philly Novice School and learned to drive in the rain. Great experience. Learned how to induce oversteer on my car as well how to control it! It was such a great feeling. Did this while on the skidpad. [/b]
Welcome to the elite club of members who have cars that actually can oversteer!

1) For us FWD, how do we get the rear tires to warm up for better grip? After one or two runs, the fronts were warm but the rears were cold. I suspect this has a lot to do of why my tail felt like giving out and why I spun out twice! (well, that and I lifted :p).[/b]
This is the biggest no-way-around-it flaw in FWD race cars. I used to run on RA-1's, and they LOVED heat. Minimum operating temperature was something north of 140 degrees, IIRC. That was impossible to get on a 60 degree day. The rears wouldn't heat up much above ambient.

The normal way to adjust for this is to run a huge stagger- fat tires up front, skinny tires in the rear. The better option is to run different tire compounds. I bet old Falken Azenis RT-215's would work great as rear tires as they hated heat and worked great in cool weather. The last option is to induce as much oversteer as possible on your first run and hope the tires stay warm. If your rear tires are too cold, you're going to oversteer like crazy anyway (hoepfully heating them up), so good luck!

The MX's do like heat, but being street tires, they should be plenty sticky even at asphalt temperatures (which is usually above ambient). Having too cold rear tires will definately make the car prone to spinning, but I wonder if that's really what happened.

2) I understand the KSport Coilovers aren’t the best. Getting Koni’s at all 4 corners would allow me more much adjustability, but is it really that much better? Is there anything else I can do to my current setup?[/b]
Oversteer (and the entire car in general) is MUCH easier to control with better shocks. You're buying much better predictability. It's the difference between swinging a baseball bat with one hand versus two. The amount of control you gain is incredible.

Of course, another thing I have to constantly work on is just to be a better driver :D. [/b]
Yes, that you spun the car probably means you need improvement as a driver. You should not have too much trouble controlling the oversteer the car currently has. It sounds like this is one of your first autocrosses? My guess is not that the car has too much oversteer; it's that you're not used to it. Don't decrease oversteer- learn to drive with it. You'll end up much faster this way. You may soon want more tendency to oversteer.

My suggestion: never let off the throttle in a turn. Just use it to varying degrees depending on the turn. Your exit speeds will almost surely be good if you can do this. If you find yourself having to brake in a turn, you went in too fast, and your problem is with braking. Concentrate on that. Lifting on the throttle completely can be useful on or near corner entry to get the car pointed in the correct direction, but don't let the car rotate too much or you'll lose time. Since you're learning, practice braking properly so that you never have to lift mid-turn. Once you grasp that, then you can start playing with inducing rotation.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Yes, that you spun the car probably means you need improvement as a driver. You should not have too much trouble controlling the oversteer the car currently has. It sounds like this is one of your first autocrosses? My guess is not that the car has too much oversteer; it's that you're not used to it. Don't decrease oversteer- learn to drive with it. You'll end up much faster this way. You may soon want more tendency to oversteer.

My suggestion: never let off the throttle in a turn. Just use it to varying degrees depending on the turn. Your exit speeds will almost surely be good if you can do this. If you find yourself having to brake in a turn, you went in too fast, and your problem is with braking. Concentrate on that. Lifting on the throttle completely can be useful on or near corner entry to get the car pointed in the correct direction, but don't let the car rotate too much or you'll lose time. Since you're learning, practice braking properly so that you never have to lift mid-turn. Once you grasp that, then you can start playing with inducing rotation.
[/b]
I know I need to improve as a driver. I've only went to one autox session last year (maybe two), so everything felt new to me. I have to get used to the feel of oversteer and instinctively have my feet to stay or push on the gas and not the brake.

And yes, they pound the idea of braking first in a straight line, then turn. I just wish there are more of these novice school or place where we can learn/practice these skills and not just at every few autox session since the runs last < 1 minute usually and only get 4 to 5 runs.

I just got Skip Barber's Going Faster DVD and the book as well. Seems like there's a wealth of information in that book. Thanks for your input.
 

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quick question with regard to this, in my skip barber racing school book they highlight braking into the apex of the turn...... im pretty sure. lemme go grab it..



but wouldnt that destroy a fwd car? ( front tires being owned)



EDIT: Yep, well, sorta, it explains that braking while straight and continuing to brake (not at threshold) while turning in to the turn allows your entry speed to be higher. you actually get off the brakes however before the apex and begin accelerating before the apex.


this combination of braking while turning in for the turn might be usefull, now that i think about it, because of the added weight shift to the front allows the tires for some more grip. stretch, what has been your experience with the rear when doing this?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Yeah, I don't think there is going to be any evo school around philadelphia this season. I heard talks about it at the novice school but nothing material. I'll have to keep my eyes open.
 

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i dont want to start another topic while we're on the discussion of sways, so should i get the same size (24mm) front and rear sways? whiteline front/progress rear, with gt spec trailing braces and front ladder brace. and THEN springs or shocks.

my first goal is to reduce body roll. with equal sized sways, how will that affect over/understeer?
 

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I LOVE my Racing Beats. Lots of reduced body roll. With the racing beat combo there will be slight understeer, but I can't comment on the others
 

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this combination of braking while turning in for the turn might be usefull, now that i think about it, because of the added weight shift to the front allows the tires for some more grip. stretch, what has been your experience with the rear when doing this?
[/b]
My experiences varied. I didn't do this often because the rear would tend to come around too much. The key to not spinning is being very, very gentle in the transition to the corner off of braking. If you ease off the brake pedal slowly, that will not induce snap oversteer, but it's hard to be gentle when turns are coming so rapidly. The rear of my car would gently but controllably oversteer, and I had to be careful to cover the throttle in case it got too far. If it got too far, I'd end up losing speed due to excessive slip angles in the rear, which to be honest sometimes seemed just as effective as trail braking (if caught quickly enough). Slightly oversteering on corner entry can sometimes set up a really fast corner exit- it's a method of doing a really late apex.
 

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I have both RB front and rear sways installed.

I guess I just have to better learn how to control the car better as well as the oversteer.
[/b]
There is a lot of info in this Thread... :huh:
I have 1 question:
Did you, or anyone you talked to at the meet, tell you about "air pressure" and how it affects the control
of your vehicle?
Before I ever adjust the rear Stab, to either pull in the Shock towers or move out. And before I adjust the Damping, I set my pressure up to the outside temp, roll around the Pad/Track and scuff the tires by enducing
yaw and roll. I then check to see if the scuff comes around the sidewall and close to the end tread grip.
If too much, add air in .5 lbs increments or if not enough, remove in same.
You may find that the rear tracks better and that your handling is more predictable.
Just an idea. :drive:
 
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