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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Okay so here's how to set up the new "round" style Perrin Pro EBCS in "Interrupt" mode, and mounting it in the stock location. Be warned that the stock location takes a bit longer, but it looks sweet, and you don't have to worry about any "ticking" sound in the car if not insulated properly on the firewall. You MUST have a tuning method (Cobb AP, etc..) to run this in interrupt mode. The factory set up is "bleed" and it's quite different.

EDIT: Perrin now makes a PNP ebcs option for us. The new Perrin Pro EBCS is available with a Speed3/6 specific plug. I got the first one, and it fits great:



Anyways, the new New Perrin Pro Electronic Boost Control Solenoid is shaped like a cylinder. The top near my fingers has one port that goes to an unrestricted boost source. You can drill out the restrictor pill on the compressor (be careful doing that or you can screw things up) and use that as your unrestricted boost source. Unrestricted means NOTHING else can be attached to it. So, you can't used your bpv line, etc. If you have the stock tmic, you can use an ATP "Quick Tap" found here: FTG-QuickTap-CompHSG : atpturbo.com, and run a line from that as your unrestricted source, and cap off the compressor hose. I have an fmic, and there wasn't room in the coupler on my hot pipe, so I choose to have my hot pipe tapped, and an aluminum barb welded on. ALL THREE PORTS are used in interrupt mode. None of the instructions say this, because it ignores us folks that run our bpv in recirc. One port on the ebcs is used to run from the ebcs to the TIP. Note the 6club up on my laptop, and some crap flightmedic posted, lol. J/K buddy ;)



Here's my hot pipe tapped. Crappy cell pic, but weld is awesome:



PLEASE READ YOUR INSTRUCTIONS, TO MAKE SURE THE PORT NUMBERS ARE THE SAME. If not, you may need to plug them into different ports. FOLLOW THESE AT YOUR OWN RISK!

IMPORTANT: So this is a pic of the factory set up with the STOCK ebcs still in there. On the WGA there are two tubes coming off it. The bottom one is larger, and goes to the compressor. I have no pics of the compressor, so just follow the larger tube going from the bottom of the WGA to the compressor. Remove the line going to the compressor, and depending on your set up, either 1) Drill out the restrictor pill carefully and use this as you unrestricted boost source, OR 2) Cap it off and use an ATP quick tap on your hot pipe coupler if you have room on your hot pipe coupler, OR 3) Drill a hole in your fmic hot pipe, and have an aluminum barb welded on like I did. The top of the WGA gets capped off and is not used with the Perrin set up in "interrupt" mode. ALSO: The line coming from the top of the WGA is plugged into your OEM ebcs when you start out. You can see two small vacuum lines going into it in the center of the pic. The factory plug just to the left of them is the what you will be plugging your two "naked" wires from the Perrin into, which you disassembled as described above. Finally, the factory ebcs has a bolt thread facing straight down with an 11mm (I think) nut on the bottom side of it. Unscrew this to get the stock ebcs out, and you'll need a bolt and nut to mount the Perrin ecbs to that hole, with 90 degree mounting bracket that it comes with. Now, the pic below describes where the bottom (larger) line on the WGA goes in you Perrin ebcs:




Here's a pic of the unrestricted boost source (off my hot pipe) going into the top of the Perrin installed:




In the pic below we see the Perrin mounted right on the factory location. The pic below shows the connection between the TIP, and Port #1 of the new style Perrin Pro ebcs. Note, that the Perrin can be installed "upside down" (label facing down), and therefore the port #'s will obviously be reversed, so pay attention. The pic also shows the top of the WGA capped with a piece of vacuum line and that purple bolt, lol. We just used a small piece of vacuum line, and threaded a much bigger screw into it, and zip tied it as well for good measure. MAKE SURE ALL YOUR HOSES ARE SECURED TIGHTLY. Note: In the pic, the green arrow is pointing at the purple bolt. The boost line I mention in writing on the right side of the pic is referring to the boost line that is just above it going to the top of the Perrin, just to be crystal clear.




Here we have the harder to see port #2 on the bottom of the Perrin, which goes go the bottom the the WGA. Remember we took that tube off the bottom of that actuator going to the compressor, and capped the compressor off in my set up here.






And here she is, all mounted up nice:




Remember, this is set up in "Interrupt" mode, and you WILL need a some sort of tuning method to make it run properly.

HELPFUL TIPS:
Remove your TIP and SF (or if you have a CAI, just separate that, leave it in place, and remove your TIP). Everything is super tight back there, and it's practically impossible to do this with the TIP in the way. Don't forget to plug up whatever you remove with some rags so you don't get dirt/pollen or creppy critters crawling in there while you're working. Also, test fit the hell out of it if you have the new style Perrin Pro like me. We had to pay attention to where the tiny barbs screwed into the Perrin. That is, the which direction the barbs were facing, but make sure they are screwed tightly into the Perrin, whatever you do. The barbs on the Perrin are also tiny, so not all the vacuum lines "fit" perfectly. We used smaller line when possible (for the bottom of the WGA for example), and just jammed it on.

And a big thanks to EMS for helping me wrestle with this thing this afternoon. It came out great, but mounting it in the factory location just right took some time. And if you wondering, the large 1/4" barb on the top of my Perrin (boost source) going to the 1/4" barb I had welded on the hot pipe was "aftermarket" lol.

EDIT:

For more info on the WGA, EBCS and how they work, and more pics of the turbo & compressor, as well as a couple ATR screen shots, read this great info from Perrin's website that explains everything very well and in detail:

Perrin Performance - Boost control explained

Also, a huge thanks to Forzda for helping everything to me. I was all thrown off, because ALL the directions say to LEAVE ONE PORT OPEN, but obviously (from pics above, lol) we have to use all 3 ports running in interrupt mode, because our bpv is set to recirc, not VTA. The "bleed" set up is different than the interrupt mode, so keep this in mind.

*Note, I have the 'newer' style Perrin, which differs from the one in the link above.




 

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Great write-up Doogie! Very good details for those folks staying with the OEM turbo compressor housing!

Is everything working well now?
 
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Douge, did you do a leak test after? I'm asking because when I capped one of my WG lines with a bolt, I had a leak there. And the bolt was definitely larger and secured tightly. I fixed it with a brass barb fitting (barb on one end and threads on the other) and a matching threaded cap from HD.

Quick question to people: on my setup, I capped the bottom nipple of the WG (instead of the top one), since the nipples on the EBCS are small. I used 5/32" lines. Any disadvantages to using the top nipple to drive the WG, as opposed to the larger bottom nipple? I didn't think it mattered due to the diameter of the hose I had to use. Thanks.
 

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Douge, did you do a leak test after?
Good question and I'm thinking he indeed has a boost leak at the turbo compressor nipple. It must be plugged to run the added boost source from the turbo outlet hot pipe. We talked on the phone last evening and he has some boost issues. I'm sure he will post up the details.


[/QUOTE] ....Any disadvantages to using the top nipple to drive the WG, as opposed to the larger bottom nipple? I didn't think it mattered due to the diameter of the hose I had to use. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

There "could" be issues with a too small hose/nipple diameter in the 3-port INTERRUPT mode because your boost source must be unrestricted. The likely result would be poor boost control and boost generally higher than targeted. The EBCS blocks the boost to the WGA to allow boost to run higher than the WGA spring allows. It then applies the boost to the WGA to open the WGA to limit the boost to the ECU targeted value. If the hose/nipple were really TOO small then it would take longer for the WGA to react and you would get boost spiking and settling at almost any targeted value.

Personally, I would(and do) run the largest diameter hoses/fittings, nipples "practical" to allow instant flow and volume.

Make sense? Doogie says that sometimes I'm not clear or detailed enough in my explanations..... LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Nice write up man! Whats the benefit of running in interrupt mode compared to the standard way?
Thanks man! Interrupt mode is also known as "fast response" mode. When your ECU is tuned properly, boost is also smoother, and and more controllable in interrupt mode (once I get my tuned right, I'll confirm this, lol) . Here is an awesome write up by Perrin which explains everything, including some tuning info with screen shots of ATR. It also has a bunch of great pics of a turbo, with all the parts labeled (including the compressor housing), and what they do and why:

Perrin Performance - Boost control explained



Great write-up Doogie! Very good details for those folks staying with the OEM turbo compressor housing!

Is everything working well now?
Thanks brother! Yeah, I try to be very thorough and think of all the questions a n00b like me could possibly have, in advance (and I usually have a ton as you know, lol). This wasn't meant to be a "how to" so I would have had more pics (of TIP out, and the bottom on the WGA, etc..), but I think I covered it quite well nonetheless. Plus that Perrin link above explains everything I didn't with pics. The other thing I missed was the first part of disassembling the plug, but Joel did a great job of that, and I linked people twice to this thread. This took a long time to write up, but I wanted to be super through, because you CANNOT screw this install up as you know. I just woke up, so I assume the car is running like it was last night with the wrong map ;). I'm gonna tweak yours out, take a shower, and then hit the road. Thanks again for all the help man, and I'll let you know how I make out in a little while :).
 
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Good question and I'm thinking he indeed has a boost leak at the turbo compressor nipple. It must be plugged to run the added boost source from the turbo outlet hot pipe. We talked on the phone last evening and he has some boost issues. I'm sure he will post up the details.


....Any disadvantages to using the top nipple to drive the WG, as opposed to the larger bottom nipple? I didn't think it mattered due to the diameter of the hose I had to use. Thanks.
There "could" be issues with a too small hose/nipple diameter in the 3-port INTERRUPT mode because your boost source must be unrestricted. The likely result would be poor boost control and boost generally higher than targeted. The EBCS blocks the boost to the WGA to allow boost to run higher than the WGA spring allows. It then applies the boost to the WGA to open the WGA to limit the boost to the ECU targeted value. If the hose/nipple were really TOO small then it would take longer for the WGA to react and you would get boost spiking and settling at almost any targeted value.

Personally, I would(and do) run the largest diameter hoses/fittings, nipples "practical" to allow instant flow and volume.

Make sense? Doogie says that sometimes I'm not clear or detailed enough in my explanations..... LOL
Makes perfect sense - thank you. I'll keep an eye on my boost curves when I do more tuning this weekend, but so far haven't had any issues with spikes. I might revisit the hose routing as well to implement your suggestions. So you gave your phone # to Douge? lol I thought I read somewhere that wasn't a good idea :D.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Douge, did you do a leak test after? I'm asking because when I capped one of my WG lines with a bolt, I had a leak there. And the bolt was definitely larger and secured tightly. I fixed it with a brass barb fitting (barb on one end and threads on the other) and a matching threaded cap from HD. Quick question to people: on my setup, I capped the bottom nipple of the WG (instead of the top one), since the nipples on the EBCS are small. I used 5/32" lines. Any disadvantages to using the top nipple to drive the WG, as opposed to the larger bottom nipple? I didn't think it mattered due to the diameter of the hose I had to use. Thanks.
We did do a pressure test after with like 20+ PSI, and could not hear any leaks, and the pressure tester gauge going to the compressor didn't move. We were a little distracted at the time, so it wasn't the most through test, lol. I was also worried about a leak, and we used a smaller screw to cap off the compressor hose (I was concerned about this yesterday). If I have a leak, it must be very small... was only holding a bit over 16 PSI, and gauge needle was still shaky.

I think Forzda answered the second q you have "well enough" LOL!!! Honestly, I hadn't read up on the WGA business too much before hand, and I assumed there was some sort of valve that required you to cap off the top one, and run the bottom one to the Perrin. Forzda explained to me how the larger size hose is better though.

Good question and I'm thinking he indeed has a boost leak at the turbo compressor nipple. It must be plugged to run the added boost source from the turbo outlet hot pipe. We talked on the phone last evening and he has some boost issues. I'm sure he will post up the details....

Personally, I would(and do) run the largest diameter hoses/fittings, nipples "practical" to allow instant flow and volume.

Make sense? Doogie says that sometimes I'm not clear or detailed enough in my explanations..... LOL
Yeah, I'm was very concerned about the compressor cap, but EMS said it would be FINE (you punk! lol J/K thanks again for all the help :)). I'm really hoping it's the tune, but I wouldn't think the needle would be shaking like that even if it was a tuning issue. I'll rule that out in an hour. Otherwise, I'll have to re-cap that compressor hose (which is a bitch to get at... TIP coming out again, lol). I'll go pick up some 1/8" barb couplers and caps as mwspeed suggested. Forzda, any chance this problem could be due to the different size hoses I used? I have 1/4" on the boost source, 1/8" on the other two lines.

When I asked Forzda to explain how the EBCS works, this is all he said in breaking it down:



LOL!! J/K... there were 10 sheets of differential equations he sent me :p.
 

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...... any chance this problem could be due to the different size hoses I used? I have 1/4" on the boost source, 1/8" on the other two lines. .......
Well, I wouldn't THINK so unless you guys kinked the smaller hose at the nipple connection. I've seeen that happen when jamming too small hose on larger nipples...., but keep that thought till later.

I haven't seen the internal mechanical schematic for that new round Perrin you have, but I can't imagine they would change the port functional #s or internal port sizes.

As i mentioned, the EBCS "fault" modes should be stuck either open or closed. Either mode could be caused by the solenoid failed, or could be the internal valve failed.

EBCS valve "Open" would cause your boost to run @ WGA spring pressure which will be much lower than targeted. Likely ~15-16 psi with your mods.

EBCS "Closed" would cause your boost to run away with no control and you would likely see it well above 20psi and climbing before you got off the gas....

You can functionally test that EBCS by energizing it while blowing into the Boost source port and feeling which port the air comes out of, if it does.

Anyway, let's wait until you get a decent drive in with the car before WOT and run a log of the WOT results for evaluation.:D
 
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Ha forzda....all about the calculous?
 

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Ha forzda....all about the calculous?

Uhhmmmm, that would be a negative! I'm not the calc nerd, that would be Mr Doogie!
 
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Uhhmmmm, that would be a negative! I'm not the calc nerd, that would be Mr Doogie!
You bet your sweet Bippy! lol Forzda you should get that reference ;).

Update: I spoke with Perrin today, and they patched me through to the guy who created the new design, and we talked for like an hour about it. I'm the first dude with the New Perrin Pro for an MS6, so he wants to get it working right, and tuned well so other MS6'ers will want them as well. The air flows a bit differently (not exactly sure how atm), which may cause further changes in the WGDC verses the previous, rectangular one everyone else has. So, he was a nice guy, and really wants to figure this out, so I'm gonna work with him for a bit on it. He is also going to send me out an older version next week to rule out out some things, and in the meantime, he wants me to try a couple of things.

Forzda helped me trouble shoot a few things that could be going wrong, and here's what we have:

1. I'm only holding ~16.5 PSI at WOT with the new Perrin Pro ebcs, and a shaking boost needle (it was shaky with the old one, lol).

2. I disconnected the the Perrin altogether, and I was holding about 12-13 PSI. So, this along with #1 suggests the Perrin is working, but I'm obviously not hitting my 20 PSI boost targets. If it wasn't working at all, we should have seen 16.5 PSI again with it disconnected. So, it MAY just be that the new design requires further changes to the WGDC. Or something could be wrong with the device itself.

3. It is not an electrical connection with the McGuyver set up. I checked the voltage going to the Perrin, and it is wired correctly, and getting 12v.

I'm gonna send him my map, and a few datalogs, and we'll go from there. I'm sure you guys want to know if the new Perrin's work right, because Perrin no longer makes the old ones. SU still has some afaik, but Perrin does not. I'll keep you posted :)
 
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How are you guys tuning for interrupt? I have a full interrupt mode ebcs tune, but I didnt make it. I was curious as to what all is changed.
 

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there is no way that Doug has a boost leak. we had it pressurized at 20+ for over a minute with no movement on the pressure gauge, when he had a small leake in his TIP from CPE, it would depressurize in a matter of seconds. his issue must be with the difference electronically between the older style Perrin and the newer style Perrin.

and as far as using a bolt as a boost/vacuum plug, there is no problem with using it as long as you use a machine thread bolt and a zip tie to secure it. the zip tie will actually push the silicone or rubber into the threads as you squeeze it tighter.
 

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How are you guys tuning for interrupt? I have a full interrupt mode ebcs tune, but I didnt make it. I was curious as to what all is changed.
I just reduced WGDC by 30% as "recommended" and am not over-boosting at all. I might fine tune WGDC more if necessary. I'm reaching my 17 PSI targets without spikes. Still playing around with boost targets and req. load, but I am very pleased so far. I have the Grimmspeed by the way.
 

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I just reduced WGDC by 30% as "recommended" and am not over-boosting at all. I might fine tune WGDC more if necessary. I'm reaching my 17 PSI targets without spikes. Still playing around with boost targets and req. load, but I am very pleased so far. I have the Grimmspeed by the way.
This seems very "strange" to me. I tuned my car to "perfection" (well, I like it! LOL) with the OEM BCS. After a LONG while of running near 100% (in AP log) DC for my boost level, it was obviously getting tired and the actual boost wasn't as precise as it was, so I bought the Perrin EBCS (didn't install it though!) A long while later as I was prepping the car for the BNR stage3 turbo install (turbo still not installed) I decided to install the Perrin EBCS. It works perfectly to hit my boost targets with NO tuning changes....

I can't say for sure, but I suspect the EBCS port and hose sizes and lengths may be causing you guys to retune to hit your previous boost targets. The shorter and larger the ID the better on the boost control setup hoses and ports.

NOTE: I drilled out the restrictor pill in the OEM turbo nipple for the boost source. It is possible that your location of the input source to the EBCS makes a difference as well. The closer to the turbo compressor outlet the better as well. You can tune just about any setup to work as you want, but IMO it isn't REQUIRED unless you physically alter the previous configuration of hose/source/vent.

Just think about it a bit....
If the boost is higher than targeted with the new EBCS that means the internal solenoid valve is too slow to close; too small to flow enough boost to the WGA when the EBCS is closed; the port outlet, EBCS nipple, or the hose ID is too small.

If the boost is lower than targeted with the new EBCS that means the internal solenoid valve is too slow to open; too small to flow enough boost out to the TIP when the EBCS is open; the port outlet, EBCS nipple, or the hose ID is too small.

The bottom line (IMO) is that in either case, the EBCS isn't flowing enough air.... OR my EBCS is the weird one! LOL
 
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I must say that I never tried my map without reducing WGDC, which was the recommendation. I'm a newb and "just followed the instructions" lol, and it worked OK. But now I'm curious to try the map without reducing WGDC. By the way, here's my boost source. It's half way between the compressor outlet and IC:
IMG00002-20100522-1028.jpg

I don't think the other hoses are too long, given the location of my EBCS, but their internal diameter is 5/32". Anyway, I'll revert my WGDC to the original values and carefully log a WOT run. Must confirm this, and learn more!
 

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So, I did a test today. I reverted WGDC to the original values and over-boosted a little. I have the Grimmspeed EBCS and the instructions do warn about over-boosting if you don't reduce WGDC. I'm not sure about the Perrin, but I thought it would be similar...

Background information:

  • I've been trying to tune by setting Boost Targets and increasing load until those targets are met. From what I've read on the forums (specifically info from Forzda), Boost Targets are used to reach load targets. So I would think that boost is limited to Boost Targets, even if load is really high (though I have not verified this enough). And if load goes down enough, boost will go down as well, regardless of the Boost Targets. So I can use the per-gear load tables to fine tune boost per gear. I'm sure there are other factors that also affect boost, such as the compensation tables, but I left those alone. :excl: I may be way off with this paragraph here, so correct me if I'm wrong!
  • My Boost Targets table is set to peak at ~17.3 PSI, tapering down to ~15
  • With 30% reduction in WGDC, I was hitting those targets ok. I think some fine tuning to load and WGDC may be needed to reach the targets more accurately.
  • Note that I made sure the load tables and boost/load limits work together according to the logic we all know from COBB
So my test was to increase WGDC back to the original values. This was the only change I made. The result was that I over-boosted to ~19.2 PSI, which is over my boost targets. So I'm thinking that the reason for the over-boost is too much duty cycle for my setup.

Any comments? I've already said I'm a newb, and my knowledge is based on a mixture of information from the community combined with trial and error and some assumptions :). Thanks!
 

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Yeah, I spent quite some time on the phone with Doogie today on the EBCS. He will run some more tests with the WGDC to get the right values for his particular setup.

It appears that the "new" Perrin and apparently the Grimm you're running (I assume in interrupt config) doesn't apply the boost quick enough to the WGA to keep the boost from exceeding the target. I'm guessing that if you hold the throttle down, the boost will settle at your target value. It just overshoots because the EBCS can't get closed fast enough to move the boost from the TIP nipple and apply it to the WGA.
 
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Yeah thats the conclusion me and my tuner are coming to, I am running off of the stock restricted nipple on the turbo and I need at a minimum a unrestricted boost source.

I am also starting to wonder if the ~1/8" NPT to nipple fitting needs to be upgraded to a larger nipple size.
 
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