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Discussion Starter #1
I was at the American Le Mans Series race at Laguna Seca this past weekend, and Mazda had a V6 Mazda6 on display. I did a thorough look over, inside the cabin, under the hood, and under the car.

As far as the engine upgrades...... It appears the MAF is integrated with the airbox, so for cold air intakes, the MAF "guts" will have to be unscrewed from the stock housing and the intake piping would need to be made to accept the "guts" of the MAF.. But there doesnt appear to be much room under the hood for a true cold air intake anyways.... Once we can get a car in our shop then we can take a closer look....

For exhaust... It appears pretty restrictive. The exhaust manifolds are as bad as they are on the other 3.0L Duratec engines (Taurus, Escape, etc). the three exhaust ports enter into one channel....and at the far right is the down pipe.....There are small pre-cats in the Y-pipe which make it very restrictive as well. The headers and Y-pipe that we make for the car will not be "street legal" but it will still pass the sniffer tests of even states like California. We cant make the headers CARB legal because we are removing the catalytic converters....Any time you move the stock cat location, forget about getting CARB approval. But I would expect gains of 20hp to the engine with the headers and Y-pipe alone. Throw on a higher flowing intake and a less restrictive exhaust, and a conservative estimate of 30hp gains at the engine are likely....

After the Y-pipe it goes down to 1 pipe and then splits back out into 2 tail pipes....mostly for looks, not performance...It appears there is room under the car to make a true dual exhaust with an X-pipe to make even more power.....we will test this out......

Again...the sooner we can get a test 6 into our shop, the sooner we can get parts out for them....

Nikolas
 

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Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

Cool! Keep us in the loop, it's good to hear that someone is looking into mods for us! ;)
 

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Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

It sounds like you could squeeze an easy 30-40 hp out of this engine before you get "serious". That's good news. What about the I-4? Have you had a peek at it? It seemed like Mazda worked pretty hard to let it flow better than most stock setups.
 

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Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

Well, 30-40 hp sounds about right. I read somewhere awhile back that Mazda had 250hp 3.0L V6 test mules running around, just in case it became that necessary they have one.

The problem is the 250hp V6 would be the same amount of power as the soon to be flagship RX-8 rotary engine. They would have to bump up power in the RX-8 before they'd put that kind of power in the 6.

Personally, I think it is getting nuts anyway. Honda and Nissan have 240hp V6 motors, and I would think that has got to be pushing the limits of front wheel drive cars. A 300hp FWD I just don't think would fly, though I'm sure Nissan will try that sometime ;)
 

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Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

Something makes me wonder too, about if the V6 is really that much better than the I4, or if Mazda is simply doing it because a V6 is required. The I4 has so much new technology, the 6 and the engine were designed together to be very compatable, and when I read the spec sheet, it sounds like the I4 has the header setup that performance cars use, it has a very free flow exhaust, etc.

The V6 seems like it was just made to fit, and put in the car. Granted, the Duratec is an older motor, so it is not going to have all those neat headers, with the nice exhaust setup, etc, so maybe when it comes time for a new V6 engine to be developed, the new motor will have advancements that are already in place on the I4?

I would think I'd want the higher hp car, but something tells me that even with the extra 60hp over the 2.3L, that the car is not going to be all that much quicker. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just have that feeling. 5 speed to 5 speed, I just don't see it. And I'm willing to bet the 5 speed I4 will be pretty much as quick as the V6 automatic, just the same way the manual I4 Accord is only about 0.2 sec slower 0-60 than the V6 auto.

I like the technology on the I4, it is truly a world class engine for a family sedan, and has the potential to be very great in a car such as the Miata. However, the V6, while I'm sure is quite good, and well tweaked by Mazda, still doesn't come close to the I4 in terms of sophistication and tech.

I guess we'll see..... Never thought I'd maybe choose an I4 over a V6...:sarc
 

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Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

You are exactly right about why the Mazda6 doesn't have a higher HP engine configuration to match the Honda/Nissan competition. Though, this wouldn't be much of an issue when the MazdaSpeed6 comes out.

I also agree that there is some HP (maybe more appropriately torque) limit that will make the FWD configuration pointless. Regardless, I still think that even with a 21 HP disadvantage, the Mazda6 will out perform either the Honda or the Nissan, with the Altima coming in second and the Accord last.

Though, I used to own a 3rd gen RX-7 (had to sell for a down payment on a house); I think my next Mazda purchase has got to either a MazdaSpeed6 or a MazdaSpeed RX-8 to replace my 2000 626 ES V6 5spd. When you have a family, you have to think about these things. Basically, my choice boils down to either more room and safety (MazdaSpeed6 AWD) or more power (RX-8 with 350 HP).

QUOTE
Originally posted by Jerome81


            Well, 30-40 hp sounds about right.  I read somewhere awhile back that Mazda had 250hp 3.0L V6 test mules running around, just in case it became that necessary they have one.

The problem is the 250hp V6 would be the same amount of power as the soon to be flagship RX-8 rotary engine.   They would have to bump up power in the RX-8 before they'd put that kind of power in the 6.

Personally, I think it is getting nuts anyway.  Honda and Nissan have 240hp V6 motors, and I would think that has got to be pushing the limits of front wheel drive cars.  A 300hp FWD I just don't think would fly, though I'm sure Nissan will try that sometime ;)[/b]
 

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Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

We have yet to take a look at the Mazda6 2.3L We are very eager to get our hands on one to see what can be done for even more power. After speaking with some race engine builders who have worked with the Ranger 2.3L Duratec, they say the stock head configuration can flow enough air from the factory to make alot more power than Mazda or Ford is making. So now we just need to find the best ways to increase air in and air out and we will make more power granted we can supply enough fuel (shouldnt be too difficult).....

For the V6, Torque Steer will become an issue if you get up too high. Those of us with high powered 2.5L Duratecs have installed Quaife limited slip differentials to help with traction, but even then, it only helps so much. I am hoping the wishbone suspension works better in applying the power to the ground. The MacPherson Strut suspension on the Cougar isnt very good so wheel hop and single wheel burnouts are common with the open differential.....

Dyno numbers for an Automatic Escape will be coming hopefully in less than 2 months. We are still working on the intake and exhaust for that vehicle. The horsepower gains should be similar between the Escape 3.0L and the Mazda6 3.0L...with the Mazda engine making a little more power due to the S-VT......


Nikolas
 

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Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

(Hi all, first post here. The Mazda 6 and the RX-8 are my top two contenders for my next commuter car.)

I'm with Jerome81. The Duratec V6 seems like an engine thrown in to satisfy us power-hungry North Americans. The current horsepower war is ridiculous.

In World of Wheels (a Canadian publication) they drove a Mazda 6 4-cylinder back to back with the V6 version. They actually preferred the 4-cylinder version. Handled better without the extra weight over the front tires, and revved quicker and smoother. Of course, these were pre-production models, so who knows for sure.

Personally, I'm leaning towards the 2.3L with the 5-speed. The extra weight (what is it, about 300 lbs last I checked?) of the V6-versions isn't worth it for me, nor is the extra fuel consumption.

I'd be interested if extra power is available out of the 2.3. However, 160 HP ain't bad either for a base engine!
 

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Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

QUOTE
Originally posted by max_stirling

.. Regardless, I still think that even with a 21 HP disadvantage, the Mazda6 will out perform either the Honda or the Nissan, with the Altima coming in second and the Accord last.[/b]
Believe it or not the 2003 Accord V6 automatic has a quicker 0-60 then the Altima V6 automatic, even though it's only by fractions of a second. The 2003 Accord V6 coupe will offer a six speed manual which (sad to say) will blow Camry, Altima, and M6 out of the water. Honda says with premium fuel it's V6's deliver 250hp. So I doubt V6 Mazda6 will be quicker. Way I see it, it will be (1) Accord (2) Altima and then (3) Mazda6. Forget about Camry.

But the M6 will still be decent and will also, I'm sure, be the funnest to drive. And that's what counts the most as far as I'm concerned.
 

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Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

QUOTE
Originally posted by DuratecPerformance


            We have yet to take a look at the Mazda6 2.3L    We are very eager to get our hands on one to see what can be done for even more power.  After speaking with some race engine builders who have worked with the Ranger 2.3L Duratec, they say the stock head configuration can flow enough air from the factory to make alot more power than Mazda or Ford is making.  So now we just need to find the best ways to increase air in and air out and we will make more power granted we can supply enough fuel (shouldnt be too difficult).....


Nikolas[/b]

Exactly what I was thinking! Forced induction! ;) Especially if Mazda has used cosworth engineering to strengthen the internals of the 2.3. But even if they havn't, Mazda has always built strong (internal) motors. Thus, a small boosted application is very viable. Can you say Mazdaspeed!
 

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Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

QUOTE
Originally posted by DuratecPerformance


            We have yet to take a look at the Mazda6 2.3L    We are very eager to get our hands on one to see what can be done for even more power.  After speaking with some race engine builders who have worked with the Ranger 2.3L Duratec, they say the stock head configuration can flow enough air from the factory to make alot more power than Mazda or Ford is making.  So now we just need to find the best ways to increase air in and air out and we will make more power granted we can supply enough fuel (shouldnt be too difficult).....

Nikolas[/b]
Now, the I4 from the Mazda6 is NOT a duratec engine, correct. Only the V6 is Duratec. If I'm not mistaken, the 2.3L Ranger I4 is not related at all to the MZF Mazda I4 to be used in the 6. I just checked specs at Ford and Mazda, and bore and stroke are identical, as is the compression ratio. Maybe that is just a fluke, as I am nearly certain the Mazda6 is supposed to be the first US introduction of the new MZF engines?? I don't believe the Ranger has changed base motors in a long time, and considering the new engines are less than 1 year in production, I don't see how the Ranger could possibly have a version of the MZF engine.

Anyone else know anything? I don't know crap about Fords, cause I hate almost all of them.
 

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Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

The only Cosworth engineering used was their sand casting process, which was as much for economics as anything else. Obviously nobody knows how much the internals have been changed for the MazdaSpeed 6, but I'd bet they'd take a low pressure turbo without much problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

The 2.3L Ranger engine and the 2.3L Mazda6 engine are the same thing for the most part. The Mazda6 engine does have the balance shafts of course, and the head is a Mazda head using the Sequential-Valve Timing (S-VT). But....the Ranger was the first Ford/Mazda vehicle to use the new 4 cylinder Duratec engines.......


The new 4 Cylinder engines are called Duratecs, just like the 2.5L and 3.0L V6 engines. They are all aluminum and the blocks are cast using the Cosworth Process...not by Cosworth....but using their patented process. The pistons are cast and the rods are sinter-forged... From testing that race teams have done with the stock internals, these engines will not be very receptive to boost or VERY high revs... Aftermarket forged pistons and rods are out already being used by race teams. These 2.3L engines will have HUGE aftermarket support, it will just take some time.

Check out this site for more info on these engines:

http://home.att.net/~biker16/mazda_duratec_HE.html


Nikolas
 

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Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

I visited that link you posted, and read through part of it. I think the second little section is taken from a press release from mazda's website, correct?

Here is a quote:
Mazda Motor Corporation's new family of 4-cylinder engines is the latest in a new range of powertrains that will establish Mazda as Ford Motor Company's center of excellence for all large I-4 gasoline engine development. The new engine will be used in a broad range of vehicles, beginning with the Mazda 6. It will be offered in three displacements: a 1.8-liter, 2.0-liter and an advanced 2.3-liter with Mazda's Sequential Valve Timing (S-VT); which improves performance efficiency, and balance shaft to eliminate vibrations resulting from free mass and momentum forces.

It says there that "The new engine will be used in a broad range of vehicles, beginning with the Mazda 6."

I remember reading this, and that is why I am doubting the claim that the Ranger is already using this engine. It seems to me there are just a few too many things the same, while in actuallity the engines are completely different. Much like how the 2.5L Duratec made 170hp and so did the Mazda K series 2.5L V6, and many people thought they were more or less the same engine, while in fact they were not related at all. Same with the Focus and Protege. Both 2.0L, both 130hp, but the Protege uses a Mazda only engine sourced from the 626 while the Focus is using a Ford engine. Many people have thought that these cars were both using the same engine.

Now I don't want to question you too hard, because I'm not 100% sure I know what I'm talking about, that and the fact you deal with the Duratec engines quite regularly ;) But I still have my doubts that they would take this world class I4 engine, and the first thing they'd stick it in is the outdated and crude Ranger pickup, especially when it states the Mazda6 is the first application of the new motors.
 

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Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

Its true. The Ranger has the same (basically) 2.3 as in the Mazda 6. Its in different tune; it produces 135 HP, and more low end torque, but it is the 2.3.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

Yeah...i understand your point about the press release.....

But, the engines are the "same".....barring the differences i pointed out. If you were to rip off all of the accesories, intake system, exhaust manifolds, etc.. and sat a Ranger 2.3L right next to a Mazda6 2.3L... they would look nearly identical.. Same bore, same stroke, same block...different crank, balance shafts, etc... but the same engine.

Why Ford chose to put it in the Ranger first, I have no idea. Eventually versions of this engine will be in every 4 cylinder application offered by Ford Mo. Co. around the world.

The Mazda6 will be the first FWD application of this engine here in the USA...followed by the Focus I believe. The PZEV Focus is supposed to be offered in the "Green States" here in the US....like California... Estimated HP of around 150 or so for the 2.3L Focus. Basically wherever you see a Mazda or Ford using a 4 cylinder engine now, they will all come with Duratecs at some point in time..... Pretty cool...


Nikolas
 

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Replying to Topic 'Got to see V6 Mazda6 this past weekend'

QUOTE
Originally posted by DuratecPerformance

.. Basically wherever you see a Mazda or Ford using a 4 cylinder engine now, they will all come with Duratecs at some point in time.....  Pretty cool...

Nikolas[/b]
Pretty cool indeed if you work for a company called DuratecPerformance. :D :D
 
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