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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
For those of you who have considered running extra injectors, have you thougt about this?

Where are you going to get you fuel from? Tap into the stock lines? Nice idea but you will NOT fun 1600-1800 psi of fuel through normal port injectors. Those are built to handle the fuel pressure on normal cars which is around 30-100 or so for those running really high boost. Not pressures that are 16 - 18 times that. Plus how would that extra fuel, which would be much hotter entering the cylinder than the fuel from the direct injectors, mix with the fuel from the direct injectors? What about just how they would mix normally since they are two types of systems? May or may not be a problem. The biggest problem I See is getting fuel to run the extra injectors. You need to either add another fuel system with a new pump that runs at lower pressures seen on normal port injectors cars (such as aorund 40 psi) and lines to the new extra injectors, or find some way of taking that 1700 psi fuel and dropping the pressure down to 40 or 50 or whatever for the extra injectors... Good luck on that one.

Now, maybe instead of your normal port injectors, maybe try running another set of direct injectors. Since they are already built to handle high fuel pressures (and you already have high fuel pressure) this would seem to be an easier route than trying to mix port injection with direct injection. Still have the injectors in the intake manifold somewhere, most likely close to the head/ valves on normal port inectors but only run them when needed then. The extta fuel could just return to the tank just as the other fuel does. Though, you would not be adding 1800psi fuel into the intake manifold, probably not a good idea as well.

I don't see running an extra set of port injectors to be an easy, or maybe even possible, job. You can't just add them with an extra injector controller like you would on a normal port injection car.

Anyway, this was mostly posted because I have read of a few people who have thought about but I don't think they thought or realized, what the pressure levels are between the two types of fueling and how to combine them.

Now ya, you could try running the fuel through an orifice to get the pressure down, but that would be a VERY small hole and would probably cause more problems than it would be helpful. I'll do a calculation at work tomorrow on figuring what size orifice would be needed. Just as an example.
 

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As I understand it the fuel is pumped from the tank to the engine in a lower pressure line then a secondary pump hits that 1600 psi. IF the tank --> engine lines are a respectible pressure then tap in there with an AUX FPR and run a secondary injector that way?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
As I understand it the fuel is pumped from the tank to the engine in a lower pressure line then a secondary pump hits that 1600 psi. IF the tank --> engine lines are a respectible pressure then tap in there with an AUX FPR and run a secondary injector that way?
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If its that way, then I could see it being possible. I think one of the pumps is almost on top of the engine as you can hear it (or something) running for a bit once the car is turned off and there is a nice ticking noise (probably the inejctors) when the car is running and there is a fuel pump sound as well up there.

If that is the case, then it could be possible, but, still depends what the pressure is in the line from the tank.
 

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Agreed, if they are running 2 set of pressure lines who is to say they are within normally acceptable pressure ranges (30-60PSI) and not 150 psi or 15 psi.... I can tell you this, I will not be the one to find out :lol:
 

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The output pressure for the intank pump and FPR is ~62 psi. It is bumped to between 400 and 1665 psi at the underhood pump.
 

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Tap the line from the tank (62 psi) then run an FPR to drop the pressure to the injector operating range.

Thats an easy problem...

The more difiicult problem is that adding a port injector will make the car act like it has port injection. With the MS6 compression ratio, piston, manifold, and head designed for DIRECT injection. The knock tolerance will be alot lower when fuel is delivered in a way that the motor is not designed for. Running even stock levels of boost could prove to be difficult. I belive the compression ratio, and the combustion chamber geometry will prove a difficult hurdle.

Admitedly I do not know nor can I predict the tolerance of this system to an outside injector.

I do know that there will be an EXTREMELY lean mixure in the cylinder when the intake valves open and under compression UNTIL the direct injectors fire. Say that the port injectors deliver 20 percent of the total fuel. This will enter the cylinder be and be squished before the direct injectors have a chance to fire the rest of the fuel into the cyl and bring the total AFR back to normal.

Any pre-ignition in this range will be very lean pre-ignition.

This is where combustion is unpredictable.
 

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Why is anyone even talking about this? When I asked the question about our injector sizes in ccs all I got was that no one found the limit of the stock fuel system so an upgraded one was pointless. I was basically told to STFU!

You guys are awesome, most of yous sound like a bunch of noobs to engine modification.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Why is anyone even talking about this? When I asked the question about our injector sizes in ccs all I got was that no one found the limit of the stock fuel system so an upgraded one was pointless. I was basically told to STFU!

You guys are awesome, most of yous sound like a bunch of noobs to engine modification.
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Not a noob here. The question was more aimed at another post I read on another site so I figured I would post up something here since I had read about people asking the question on extra injectors. I personally don't plan to run extra injectors. I'll wait till some place makes larged or higher flowing direct injectors, but even then, I won;t worry about the injectors until the stock ones are absolutely maxed out. Which, no one knows since there is still no tuning completely available yet and no one is modified enough to even be worried about what the stock injectors can handle.

Anyway, I dont think anyone knows what the stock injectors flow and at this point in time, it doesnt matter since no one needs upgraded injectors yet anyway.

As for when they ARE needed, I don;t see why we don't look into Diesel companies since all they make are direct injectors, albeit different from the kind we run but I bet they would be the best at making/ designing larger ones.
 

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+1
 

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Why is anyone even talking about this? When I asked the question about our injector sizes in ccs all I got was that no one found the limit of the stock fuel system so an upgraded one was pointless. I was basically told to STFU!

You guys are awesome, most of yous sound like a bunch of noobs to engine modification.
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So when a simmilar thread comes up instead of jumping in with your ideas and being constructive you insult the entire forum?!?!?

As far as injector size, with different duty cycles and pressure CC's may not tell you anything becaus they cannot go static on our motor....
 

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So when a simmilar thread comes up instead of jumping in with your ideas and being constructive you insult the entire forum?!?!?

As far as injector size, with different duty cycles and pressure CC's may not tell you anything because they cannot go static on our motor....
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This is the point I was trying to get at in his post. The injectors cannot go static on a direct injection motor the injectors may be able to flow 2000cc/min static but at 6000 rpm it may only be able to deliver 400cc/min becuase they must be pulsed and synced with the engine cycle.

Even if you did know what the exact flow rate was you would not be able to do anything with it. Its not comparable to port injection standards.
 

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So when a simmilar thread comes up instead of jumping in with your ideas and being constructive you insult the entire forum?!?!?

As far as injector size, with different duty cycles and pressure CC's may not tell you anything becaus they cannot go static on our motor....
[/b]

Almost everyone that responded to my post insulted me so I wanted to spread the love. :D
They can lecture me when they build a N/A engine from ground up and boost the shit out of it reliably. :slap:



This is the point I was trying to get at in his post. The injectors cannot go static on a direct injection motor the injectors may be able to flow 2000cc/min static but at 6000 rpm it may only be able to deliver 400cc/min becuase they must be pulsed and synced with the engine cycle.

Even if you did know what the exact flow rate was you would not be able to do anything with it. Its not comparable to port injection standards.
[/b]

Like I said in my post there has to be a max volume they can spray. I asked if anyone knows and instead of simply saying no they try to insult me and give a lecture. If there was no max, then whats with the talk of extra injectors. See my point.
 

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Almost everyone that responded to my post insulted me so I wanted to spread the love. :D
They can lecture me when they build a N/A engine from ground up and boost the shit out of it reliably. :slap:
Like I said in my post there has to be a max volume they can spray. I asked if anyone knows and instead of simply saying no they try to insult me and give a lecture. If there was no max, then whats with the talk of extra injectors. See my point.
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There is talk about extra injectors because in a direct injection engine as the RPM's go up the pulse length goes down in order to time with the engine. In port injection this factor is irrelevant. Direct injection is not an optimal way to deliver fuel at high RPM's and more than likely it will reach its limit.

Port injection VIA additional injector makes sense and wont break the bank.

What do you want me to tell you? If we gave you a number of 5000cc static what would you do with it... Absolutely nothing... The only time a direct injector would be able to run 100 percent static IDC is when the engine is off in test mode.

As RPM's increase say at 6000 rpm this 5000cc injector may only be able to deliver 400cc of fuel because of its shortened injection window.
 

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What do you want me to tell you? If we gave you a number of 5000cc static what would you do with it... Absolutely nothing... The only time a direct injector would be able to run 100 percent static IDC is when the engine is off in test mode.

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It doesn't matter what I could do with that number. Nobody can do anything to these cars yet since there is no support (I mean real mods, not bolt on bullshit) so it doesn't matter what anyone ever asks about the engine specifics. So in your world nobody can ask questions about the engine cause you can't do anything with that info anyway, right! :sarc: It was a question. If there is an answer out there give it, if not don't say nobody knows. I don't need to get berrated.
 

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There is a max volume they can spray yes, but no one really knows yet what it is or what kind of duty cycles our injectors run at various RPM's.

I don;t wanna be rude but talking about your previous conquests dosent carry much weight, nore does continued inflammatory remarks, EVERYONE has built a civic fom the ground up... is it easy, no it takes time, but it is not rocket science any more either, and THIS engine is a completely different animal.

If you want HELP, I would advise not holding a grudge against the entier board for the actions of one or two memebers. If you are talking about this thread: http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.php?show...62494&st=15

I do not see one person talking down to you, they very directyl state that you cannot look at thesei njectors as a CC flow rate, and you cannot just hack the ECU to run a longer duty cycle because of the direct injection nature of the motor, there is only so much time on the intake/compression stroke at 5,000, or 6,000 rpms :shrug:
Staetments like:
Rich is safer then lean. There are plenty of hacks and piggybacks out there that should work for this car.[/b]
And
An afc hack for example keeps the injector open longer or shorter. There has to be something controlling the duration the injector is open or the amount of fuel supplied to the injector, so that there fore can be hacked.[/b]
And
The injector is told by the ecu how much fuel to deliver at 1600 psi. Since the ecu is electrical it can be hacked or piggybacked to modify the signal. The injector is being told some value of fuel to deliver electrically.[/b]
all seem to demonstrate that you do not follow how the injector duty cycles here differ from a port fuel injected motor. So people tried ot make sure you were awere of this so that you did not damage your motor or spend a ton of time on somethign that CANNOT work, if anything they wanted to make sure you would od no harm, not condescende you.

Anyways, no one knows, quit being rude and attacking people, you will enjoy yourself more.
 

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There is a max volume they can spray yes, but no one really knows yet what it is or what kind of duty cycles our injectors run at various RPM's.
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This is the answer that I was looking for ^^ was that hard. :nana: I asked a question not for their opinion.


To make more power you need more fuel its a simple theory and its all the same no matter what motor it is. Something controls the amount being sprayed at whatever psi it is being sprayed at, that signal is electronic therefore it can be hacked, is proven. What do you think Cobb or CP-e is working on; its a "hack".

"Previous accomplishments don't hold weight" so how the hell am I to know you even know what you are talking about.

The building motor statement was to show I'm not a [email protected]$king noob to motors.

I've also tuned several Honda and Acura cars using Crome and Uberdata, so I think I have a little bit of experience in this area.

Buy the way my turbod civic with zex kit smokes my speed in stock trim. Thats an accomplishment cause its a f%#king Honduh.
 

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Your so far off it is absurd... and your continued comments make you look an idiot...

You say:
I've also tuned several Honda and Acura cars using Crome and Uberdata, so I think I have a little bit of experience in this area.[/b]
But you are un able to use a forum search button and fill in a data field with the words "injector flow rate"?

then you state:
The building motor statement was to show I'm not a [email protected]$king noob to motors.[/b]
But cannot comprehend that our motor has COMPLETELY different duty cycles and CONTINUE to compare experience with port fuel injection to direct injection...



You quote me and say I gave you the answer you wanted:
This is the answer that I was looking for ^^ was that hard.[/b]
Then in the same post question my knowledge of anything car related:
"Previous accomplishments don't hold weight" so how the hell am I to know you even know what you are talking about.[/b]
So now your rude AND a hypocrite, did i give you the answer you wanted... or am i a shmuck, MAKE UP YOUR MIND :huh:

P.S. I NEVER once stated a previous accomplishment to try and prove my worth, but i did stay at a holiday inn express last night :laugh: :huh:



Then you say that:
to make more power you need more fuel its a simple theory and its all the same no matter what motor it is.[/b]
But our car runs pig rich (have you looked at the stains on your exhaust tips?!?!?) and I bet you my house against your 5pua f4st honda we get power from LESS fuel and leaning out our mix :bulb: running a 1:1 (hey thats MORE fuel right) would NEVER run a motor, so no more fuel does NOT equal more power...



Something controls the amount being sprayed (AN ECU) at whatever psi it is being sprayed at, that signal is electronic (EVER HEARD OF MECHANICAL FUEL INJECTION) therefore it can be hacked, THAT is proven. edited for proper english, unknown factors filled in a bolded[/b]
Sure it can be modified but you cannot just leave the injector open longer, you wanna keep injecting fuel past the spark?!?!? Why not inject fuel on the exhaust stroke right? because like you said more fuel ALWAYS = more power....

And no it is not a hack, working through and understanding a program then utilizing it is not a hack otherwise i am the king hacker, i hacked my VCR, My TV remote, my MP3 player...
 

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But you are un able to use a forum search button and fill in a data field with the words "injector flow rate"?[/b]
If there was already a topic on the subject then just state that, then it would have saved me the time of talking to you.

then you state:
But cannot comprehend that our motor has COMPLETELY different duty cycles and CONTINUE to compare experience with port fuel injection to direct injection...[/b]
I do comprehend, but the ecu still tells the injector how much fuel to flow at different points in the rpm range dependent on load.

From wikipedia

"Theory of operation

The major advantages of a GDI engine are increased fuel efficiency and high power output. This is achieved by the precise control over amount of fuel and injection timings which are varied according to the load conditions. In addition, there are no throttling losses when compared to a conventional fuel injected or carburated engine, which greatly improves efficiency. Basically, the engine management system continuously chooses between three different modes of combustion: ultra lean burn combustion, stoichiometric combustion, and high power output mode.

Each mode is characterized by air-fuel ratio, the amount of fuel in the air-fuel mixture; the stoichiometric ratio for petrol is 14.7 to 1 by weight, but in ultra lean mode, it could be as high as 65 to 1. These leaner mixtures than those ever achieved in the conventional engines are desired because of reduced fuel consumption.

Ultra lean combustion mode is effective under normal running conditions, when little acceleration is required. The fuel is not injected at the intake stroke but rather at the latter stages of the compression stroke, so that the small amount of air-fuel mixture is optimally placed just near the spark plug. This stratified charge is surrounded by mostly air which keeps the fuel away from the cylinder walls for lowest emissions. The combustion takes place in a toroidal cavity on the piston's surface. This technique enables the usage of ultra lean mixtures with very high air-fuel ratio, impossible with traditional carburetors or even intake port injection.
Stoichiometric combustion mode is activated for moderate load conditions. In this mode, fuel is injected during the intake stroke. The air-fuel mixture is homogeneous with the stoichiometric rates necessary for the catalytic converter to remove a maximum of the major pollutants CO and NOx from the exhaust gas.
In full power mode, the air-fuel mixture is homogeneous as well and contains the maximum amount of fuel that is possible to ignite without knocking out, as defined by the compression ratio of the engine. The fuel is injected during the intake stroke. This mode activates at high load conditions and provides maximum output and torque.
Direct injection can also be accompanied by traditional methods such as VVT and VLIM, which provide conventional control over airflow swirl patterns at stoichiometric and full power modes. Water injection or EGR can help reduce NOx emissions inevitable when burning ultra lean mixtures."

Looks like something controls the amount of fuel since it can go from ultra lean to stoich. Maybe its a higher being that changes the mixture. :sarc:

If you know the answer to a question give it instead of telling me your infinite wisdom about how this info won't help me.

So now your rude AND a hypocrite, did i give you the answer you wanted... or am i a shmuck, MAKE UP YOUR MIND :huh:
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Id say schmuck.

But our car runs pig rich (have you looked at the stains on your exhaust tips?!?!?) and I bet you my house against your 5pua f4st honda we get power from LESS fuel and leaning out our mix :bulb: running a 1:1 (hey thats MORE fuel right) would NEVER run a motor, so no more fuel does NOT equal more power...
Sure it can be modified but you cannot just leave the injector open longer, you wanna keep injecting fuel past the spark?!?!? Why not inject fuel on the exhaust stroke right? because like you said more fuel ALWAYS = more power.... [/b]
I don't have exhaust stains on my tips. :)

And no it is not a hack, working through and understanding a program then utilizing it is not a hack otherwise i am the king hacker, i hacked my VCR, My TV remote, my MP3 player...
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Unless it is a standalone that replaces the ecu it is a "hack" cause it alters the voltage signal to/from the ecu. So far of what they have shown it is not a standalone. :slap:

Your just irate cause I didn't bow down to your wisdom......I asked questions. I didn't know you are the king of th MZR. :nono:
 

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But our car runs pig rich (have you looked at the stains on your exhaust tips?!?!?) and I bet you my house against your 5pua f4st honda we get power from LESS fuel and leaning out our mix :bulb: running a 1:1 (hey thats MORE fuel right) would NEVER run a motor, so no more fuel does NOT equal more power...

[/b]
My Civic dynos at 243 hp and 218 ftlbs at the wheels at 16psi. It has an 11.9 gallon tank gets 300 miles to less then a full tank if you do the math that is 25.21008403 mpg. The speed6 dynos 240 ish and 250 ish at 15.9 psi. It has a 15.9 gallon tank at the manufactures average of 22 mpg. (25 hwy- 19 city) The motor isn't all that you crack it up to be. :slap:

Oh yeah as boost increases your fuel needs to increase to keep from detonating and to produce the power from the ever increasing air, so more fuel does make more power. :nana:
 

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Almost everyone that responded to my post insulted me so I wanted to spread the love. :D
They can lecture me when they build a N/A engine from ground up and boost the shit out of it reliably. :slap:
[/b]
ive got a force fed 355
can i insult you now?
just messin with ya about the insult
ha ha ha
 
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