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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ive been meaning to get in car video of an event or two cause of the argument over EPS and HPS and its pros and cons. This is more pointed to the one person up north who argues for HPS being better than EPS ;) Now, i will concede that maybe with the release of SkyActivG, it behaves differently in 2017 up.

If you pay attention, and it might take a couple views, youll see times where i let go of the wheel and let it return on it own, the biggest bit is right after the big 180 in the middle. This is due to caster, not the steering assist, but my point is how quick it reacts to my input and lack of input.

Also, look at that grip!
View attachment 247262

 

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Ive been meaning to get in car video of an event or two cause of the argument over EPS and HPS and its pros and cons. This is more pointed to the one person up north who argues for HPS being better than EPS ;) Now, i will concede that maybe with the release of SkyActivG, it behaves differently in 2017 up.

If you pay attention, and it might take a couple views, youll see times where i let go of the wheel and let it return on it own, the biggest bit is right after the big 180 in the middle. This is due to caster, not the steering assist, but my point is how quick it reacts to my input and lack of input.

Also, look at that grip!
View attachment 247262

Talon, I feel honoured to be called-out... 馃槉. I guess I'm north... (I'm on the 49th parallel)... Will view, with interest, but later. Wifey chores for the moment. Yeah, "Torque Vectoring" I believe came for 2017 model year...

Later.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I couldnt tag you in the post, only in a reply.

One more thing to point out, ive never had a car with steering that was so balanced and smooth. My Talon had sport steering, but i dont remember it being returned to center as fast as this.
 

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Ive been meaning to get in car video of an event or two cause of the argument over EPS and HPS and its pros and cons. This is more pointed to the one person up north who argues for HPS being better than EPS ;) Now, i will concede that maybe with the release of SkyActivG, it behaves differently in 2017 up.

If you pay attention, and it might take a couple views, youll see times where i let go of the wheel and let it return on it own, the biggest bit is right after the big 180 in the middle. This is due to caster, not the steering assist, but my point is how quick it reacts to my input and lack of input.

Also, look at that grip!
View attachment 247262

I viewed the video a few times Talon. Really good driving 馃檪. At the 27.5 - 28 sec mark you let go of the rim and it snapped back to centre or towards centre... And you're right, it is the caster that is doing this. It is quick, in that the assist does not appear to hamper the return action or speed of return. Also, I'm gauging that you are not running-in to a situation that your speed of turning the steering wheel can beat the assist being dialed-in. I think the steering is good on both accounts... plus I don't think that over-assist is occurring either. It's nicely weighted assist.

I've said it before... but really, my only issue with the steering on my 6 is how the assist dials-in (versus HPS)... from no assist to some assist. Accepting that a fully functional and brand new car, too, will have the slightest bit of on-centre freeplay... Either when the car is running but stopped- or on the freeway, too, you can move the steering wheel back and forth within this freeplay... up against the right limit of freeplay and up against the left limit of freeplay. Fine, no biggie, as the freeplay is miniscule... But on the highway, to keep within the lane, you'll have to go beyond the range of freeplay to steer the car. On my 6, I reach the limit of freeplay and I hit a bit of a "detent" that I have to surmount to be able to steer in that direction. It's not a hard to overcome detent... but I can feel it. So, to keep the car within the lane at highway speeds you are hitting and surmounting the left detent, then having to turn a mite to the right... and hitting and surmounting the right "detent" to steer right an ever so small amount. You 'kinda ping-pong left, then right then left etc all the way down the road. It is slightly fatiguing. In some cars it is not just slightly fatiguing... but a lot fatiguing.

All I'm saying is that for my hps cars all I do to steer them is nudge the LHS limits of the freeplay or the rhs limits of the freeplay... No "detent" to surmount. Plain and simple "nudging" and that's all. At least in my view, that's easier... less tiring, and more "subtle" to steer the car at highway speeds.

I don't think "Torque Vectoring" affects this behaviour.

Now, having said this... it is ONLY that aspect that I don't like much. All of the other steering performance criteria... probably are superior on the 6. That criteria, for me though, is one that is one of the most important. YMMV...

Couple of other things:. I didn't make out what the fellow was saying to you at the start gate. Care to share?

And lastly, your "grip"... I couldn't open the pix. See attached screenshot for the error msg it gave me.

Cheers... and thx for posting!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Couple of other things:. I didn't make out what the fellow was saying to you at the start gate. Care to share?
He said i was the only one lining up on the right side of the start, sometimes it makes a different on the line you take.

I wonder if that "dead spot" you think you feel, is in fact the scrub quotient of the tires (how sticky they are/nt), or lack thereof. The assist cannot cause the rack, ties rods, suspension and tires to not move when you move the steering wheel, so something has to be the cause.

Not sure why it wont allow a pic AND a yt link.

Vehicle Car Tire Automotive lighting Wheel
 

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That sure is "stick", @TalonTsi90 , hehe. Do you have the car lowered some, and do you have Sport dampers/shox, btw? How 'bout upgraded anti-sway bars? I also attach another of my favorites...

Not sure, re your comment re tire scrub quotient... I wouldn't call my description a steering "deadspot" per se, as the on-centre play is very, very small. I'm just referring to that "detent" "hump" I go through. Do you, @TalonTsi90 , feel those right- and left detents/humps at all? They are quite subtle. How 'bout anyone else?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
That sure is "stick", @TalonTsi90 , hehe. Do you have the car lowered some, and do you have Sport dampers/shox, btw? How 'bout upgraded anti-sway bars?
H&Rs from a 6 (not sure if they are stiffer than the ones for a 3), Koni Yellows, front camber bolts, nothing else yet.

Do you, @TalonTsi90 , feel those right- and left detents/humps at all? They are quite subtle.
No.

I also attach another of my favorites...
Yea, the difference is that one is with the stock wheels and 215 RE71-Rs, and the other one is with 235 Falken 615K's. I dont think the 615s are a "sharp" vs the RE-71s, but they grip obvs. I also run 30psi on the fronts, 28 rears, which has seemed to eliminate oversteer.

This is the RE-71R's on the 18x8 wheels, at around 22psi, same grip "shift" on the tread. But it looks like the car is pitched more. I just know this car LOVES the slaloms.

Wheel Car Vehicle Tire Vehicle registration plate
 

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Very nice, by way of stance and look, particularly in auto-slaloms 馃槉.

I've recounted this before, but in the waning days of my college/university time I bought a Datsun 510 2 dr, 1971 model year. Stock springs, but on Sport shocks (of the day). Memory says they were "automatic valved" whatever that means... (Mulholland-Interpart?) Had Quickor frt sway bar (1") bushed in Delrin (but not sure if std or Delrin bushings for the ends). Rear 3/4" bar, bushed in (?? durometer) rubber and I think Heim jt. ends. Std wheels were 5x13... but Chevy Corvair 5-1/2 x 13 steels went on the car. 185/70-13 moderately-sticky rubber. Uniroyal Rally 240? Made the car perhaps more tail-happy than maybe optimal for a slalom... certainly on drop-throttle. Rear susp was semitrailing arm, frt MacP.

'Lotsa fun, to be sure, but nowhere near as competent a chassis as u have with your 3...

And all of 96 hp (gross, not SAE net) 馃檨.

Lovely pedals, though, also bottom hinged throttle, but unassisted brakes. Great for heeling and toe-ing .. in fact, where I learned to double-declutch/heel&toe 馃槉.

Autoslalom is fun and adrenaline-producing.

I recall we'd run 42-45 psi frt tire press... 'dunna remember rear-.
 

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I'm quoting myself, from above, (bringing the matter to the "top" of the thread) in trying to see/hear if any of the Forum members have experienced the very subtle "detent" or "bump" I feel when moving my steering wheel beyond the left / right freeplay points...

"... my only issue with the steering on my 6 is how the assist dials-in (versus HPS)... from no assist to some assist. Accepting that a fully functional and brand new car, too, will have the slightest bit of on-centre freeplay... Either when the car is running but stopped- or on the freeway, too, you can move the steering wheel back and forth within this freeplay... up against the right limit of freeplay and up against the left limit of freeplay. Fine, no biggie, as the freeplay is miniscule... But on the highway, to keep within the lane, you'll have to go beyond the range of freeplay to steer the car. On my 6, I reach the limit of freeplay and I hit a bit of a "detent" that I have to surmount to be able to steer in that direction. It's not a hard to overcome detent... but I can feel it. So, to keep the car within the lane at highway speeds you are hitting and surmounting the left detent, then having to turn a mite to the right... and hitting and surmounting the right "detent" to steer right an ever so small amount. You 'kinda ping-pong left, then right then left etc all the way down the road. It is slightly fatiguing. In some other makes/models of cars it is not just slightly fatiguing... but a lot fatiguing..."

On my HPS cars, no "detent"... Solely "nudging-up" against the left- and right limits of freeplay steers the car in that direction...

Any comments from members?
 

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Very nice video. I was amazed at how much grip the car had. I was expecting to hear the tyres start to howl and ultimately start to understeer, but that never happened. Good show. I've owned one car with EPS (2002 Toyota Corolla) and several with HPS. I didn't find the feel of either sets to be a deal breaker, but I do have a sense of peace when it comes to EPS because I know I will have no hoses or pipes to leak, and no pump to fail. But with HPS, I know that my steering won't suddenly stiffen up on me in a corner because a fuse just blew or something of the sort. I've never put my car on a track (nor will I ever) so the types of advantages and disadvantages I see here are not factors for me.
 

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Very nice video. I was amazed at how much grip the car had. I was expecting to hear the tyres start to howl and ultimately start to understeer, but that never happened. Good show. I've owned one car with EPS (2002 Toyota Corolla) and several with HPS. I didn't find the feel of either sets to be a deal breaker, but I do have a sense of peace when it comes to EPS because I know I will have no hoses or pipes to leak, and no pump to fail. But with HPS, I know that my steering won't suddenly stiffen up on me in a corner because a fuse just blew or something of the sort. I've never put my car on a track (nor will I ever) so the types of advantages and disadvantages I see here are not factors for me.
2002 Corolla has HPS. I have a '99... same chassis. Corolla line only started with EPS in 2009. That system, i.e. the first EPS deployment for the Corolla, was reputedly THE worst EPS system out there. 2010 EPS in daughter's Hyundai Elantra is video-game-like. Ugh 馃檨...
 

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2002 Corolla has HPS. I have a '99... same chassis. Corolla line only started with EPS in 2009. That system, i.e. the first EPS deployment for the Corolla, was reputedly THE worst EPS system out there. 2010 EPS in daughter's Hyundai Elantra is video-game-like. Ugh 馃檨...
Not for the World market. My car was a Singapore Domestic Model with the EPS module on the steering column. Remember, I have lived in several different places in the world so most of my cars are not NA models.
 

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Not for the World market. My car was a Singapore Domestic Model with the EPS module on the steering column. Remember, I have lived in several different places in the world so most of my cars are not NA models.
I/we keep losing sight of this... Thx for pointing that out.

If Toyota introduced- (or was already using) EPS in 2002 it's (imho) unconscionable that they introduced such an unabashedly poor system on the '2009 Corolla 馃槓. It was/is widely panned.
 

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I/we keep losing sight of this... Thx for pointing that out.

If Toyota introduced- (or was already using) EPS in 2002 it's (imho) unconscionable that they introduced such an unabashedly poor system on the '2009 Corolla 馃槓. It was/is widely panned.
It's interesting that in Jamaica the Toyota EPS (mounted on the steering column on the inside of the cabin) was widely considered the most reliable and the Honda system (which was on the rack, exposed to engine heat and the elements) the least reliable. I can't recall a single person having any issue with theirs. The system on the Honda Accord/Torneo (JDM specs) were known for failing at the most inopportune times - They were also known for horrendous transmission issues, such that manual swaps were common and expected. Yet, they sold well and are still very loved to this day. Go figure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
still very loved to this day. Go figure.
Just reinforces my theory that once in a while, a very well balanced specimen comes along and you dont ever want to let it go. Thats how i feel about my 3, i keep finding things it does that others dont, almost like it was specially built with care. LOL, yea ok. But it does have idiosyncrasies that i dont see in other cars.
 

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Just reinforces my theory that once in a while, a very well balanced specimen comes along and you dont ever want to let it go. Thats how i feel about my 3, i keep finding things it does that others dont, almost like it was specially built with care. LOL, yea ok. But it does have idiosyncrasies that i dont see in other cars.
I feel you. The 2G 6 has some quirks and known issues, some of which I've always known about, and others that I find out as time goes by. Like I just found out that these cars are prone to having the airbag light flash 2-3. Easy fix (unplug the yellow airbag plug under the front passenger seat and then plug it back in), but potentially scary for a less capable owner.
 

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Just reinforces my theory that once in a while, a very well balanced specimen comes along and you dont ever want to let it go. Thats how i feel about my 3, i keep finding things it does that others dont, almost like it was specially built with care. LOL, yea ok. But it does have idiosyncrasies that i dont see in other cars.
Just slightly off topic, but relating to your most recent comment @TalonTsi90 , are you REALLY in love with the 2.5 SkyActiv engine in your car? It's not a stellar engine, in my view... It's an extremely long stroke- somewhat coarse-character engine, with a weak bottom end and a tapering-off top end. A bit disappointing for a 2.5 I'd say. ???
 

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It's interesting that in Jamaica the Toyota EPS (mounted on the steering column on the inside of the cabin) was widely considered the most reliable and the Honda system (which was on the rack, exposed to engine heat and the elements) the least reliable. I can't recall a single person having any issue with theirs. The system on the Honda Accord/Torneo (JDM specs) were known for failing at the most inopportune times - They were also known for horrendous transmission issues, such that manual swaps were common and expected. Yet, they sold well and are still very loved to this day. Go figure.
I was not arguing so much for the reliability aspects of the EPS on the 2009+ Corolla - but as regards the very poor highway speeds tracking. Apparently Toyota had some rear twist beam axle welding fabrication inaccuracies. Rear toe-in is not adjustable on those cars - and so with (I believe) a mite of rear toe-out in the mis-fabricated rear "axles" the steering had to cope with poor highway-speed stability. But also, apparently, the "no assist" centering of the EPS did not coincide with the straight-ahead steering position, so combined with the rear toe-out condition it made for a hot mess by way of drive quality. Very, very fatiguing at highway speeds.

Re my prior comments on what I feel on my EPS, @TalonTsi90 in particular - no one has responded, indicating their having felt the same detent-off-freeplay position. I ascribe it to:. i) my car, in particular, just IS that way; or ii) folks are just not that sensitive to those 'real subtle kinds of things; or iii) folks are just too lazy to respond. As for me - I know I'm not "hearing & feeling things" (i.e. imagining things).
 
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