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Discussion Starter #1
If we go and get a larger turbo, and really wind this toy up hard and end up windowing a block, and really end up facing a total loss.....what is the damage? is it over $10K? Where do we stand while we face being "Self insured" as we hunt for more and more power. My personal goal is to find 400+ wheel HP. In doing this, I may be pushing the limits of the engines internals. I should be 35-40 over stock now with the meth, but my plans are much larger than where I am today. I want a bigger turbo, tuner, higher boost (20-25 lbs) at a lower temp, more meth, 3" straight piped exhaust, and more. I think we should be able to get 400+ with simple bolt ons....and yes, I realize that there is no warranty on my car that has 600 miles on it....but I dont really care! If I blow it up, its a tax write off! Less income tax to pay, and a reason to start flowing the extra head while the crate engine is on! Has anyone cracked on open yet to see what the rods are like? Are they a H-Beam rod or an I-Beam? I wonder if ARP is putting out rod and main bolts or studs for us? These are all things that I will eventually have to get answered as I search for more power. A 70 dollar set of rod bolts can save you $20,000 in the event of failure vs non failure. Crap happens, so I am asking so I know what to expect......whats the cost?
 

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damn I'm jealous of your fearlessness
 

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find one damaged..salvage yard.. insurance loss.. etc.. then strip
id worry not only the block but whatever else may not support 400whp... tranny for instance
 

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very hard to come by. the engine itself needs to be shipped from japan. id be guessing whether u get a salvaged ms6 or buy a crate engine from japan, it would cost about the same.
 

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Wait a while, this engine is in the CX-7, MS6 and MS3, even tho MS6 and MS3 are kinda a limited run, I am sure there you can find a working engine in a wrecked car pretty soon.. as there is the CX-7. It should share the same internals, just not the same turbo.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Wait a while, this engine is in the CX-7, MS6 and MS3, even tho MS6 and MS3 are kinda a limited run, I am sure there you can find a working engine in a wrecked car pretty soon.. as there is the CX-7. It should share the same internals, just not the same turbo.
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So what your saying....is to let the thrashing comence! I have never in my life been out to blow an engine, but I have always built my engines for abuse...and I abused them. I have lost about $35 grand in the last 2 years to engine failures.......its a part of racing. What do you want to do......win races, or save engines? When I twist my 521ci Fords to 8500 RPM and above, I know its a roll of the dice. But to hold it at a safe 8 grand would never let me look for the elusive win that I crave....so it's bye-bye 8 grand...and reach for 9,000! Next year I will stop toying with the small engine and do a 650-700ci engine and be able to gear it much faster and slow down the revs a bit. That eases up on oil system requirements and many other factors become easier to deal with. Sorry...I know you all hate the V-8 thing......but its my passion! Back on track...

Dont't get me wrong, I do NOT want to blow this thing up in the first 6 months....but it could happen. And if it does, I will cry a tear, drink a beer, and move on with life and get it back together one way or another. I lust for power, and I hope to make much more than many folks would imagine a little 4 banger sedan would ever have. When I can rip apart corvettes, slice thru other imports, and out handle my pals new M3 while I still drive the car as my main transportation device.....I will know I am getting warm! I want to do all of this and still have the car driveable. I will most likely beg my pals over at South Bend to custom build me a Feramic button style clutch, and maybe before that happens some one else can come up with a double disk clucth that will allow much better launching without any worry about death to the clutch. A triple disk would be overkill, we dont have the need to slip that long....but a double disk would rock my world!
 

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A triple disk would be overkill, we dont have the need to slip that long....but a double disk would rock my world!
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Or a good ole fashion ACT clutch would be plenty. Unless your planning to make 600+ whp and even then an ACT would still be fine. Maybe different with the way our clutch works but I think even a double disk would be overkill unless your making ridiculous amounts of power (being, over 600)

honestly though, I would be more worried about tuning first. You can make an engine hold a lot of power as long as the tuning is right, or you could blow up a stock one if the tuning is bad. I'm sure you know this though just throwing it out there.
 

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damn I'm jealous of your fearlessness [/b]
fearlessness hell, I'm jealous of his bank account.!!! :huh:


So what your saying....is to let the thrashing comence! I have never in my life been out to blow an engine, but I have always built my engines for abuse...and I abused them. I have lost about $35 grand in the last 2 years to engine failures.......its a part of racing. What do you want to do......win races, or save engines? When I twist my 521ci Fords to 8500 RPM and above, I know its a roll of the dice. But to hold it at a safe 8 grand would never let me look for the elusive win that I crave....so it's bye-bye 8 grand...and reach for 9,000! Next year I will stop toying with the small engine and do a 650-700ci engine and be able to gear it much faster and slow down the revs a bit. That eases up on oil system requirements and many other factors become easier to deal with. Sorry...I know you all hate the V-8 thing......but its my passion! Back on track...

Dont't get me wrong, I do NOT want to blow this thing up in the first 6 months....but it could happen. And if it does, I will cry a tear, drink a beer, and move on with life and get it back together one way or another. I lust for power, and I hope to make much more than many folks would imagine a little 4 banger sedan would ever have. When I can rip apart corvettes, slice thru other imports, and out handle my pals new M3 while I still drive the car as my main transportation device.....I will know I am getting warm! I want to do all of this and still have the car driveable. I will most likely beg my pals over at South Bend to custom build me a Feramic button style clutch, and maybe before that happens some one else can come up with a double disk clucth that will allow much better launching without any worry about death to the clutch. A triple disk would be overkill, we dont have the need to slip that long....but a double disk would rock my world! [/b]

Maybe the guys at Tri-Point Motorsports might have some better info about the motor's internals. They run Comptech- built 12:1 fuel injected 4's in their World Challenge cars, but they're only claiming 265hp. Of course this is with class rules constraints.
At least they might be able to shed some insight into the makings of the short block and what components are good/bad/wise to stay away from, and where to get the "good stuff".

Lotsa luck :drive:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Wow, so who were you trying to impress again? :rolleyes:
[/b]
If you are refering to me...I am not trying to impress anyone. I am just saying that the lifestyle I live revolves around my cars and trucks. My wife and 3 children have accepted that in order to see me, you have to come down to the shop I usually spend 14+ hours a day there working on my toys, working on others toys and doing installs, talking on the phone to customers, taking care of problems with product, drinking beer!, fabricating parts, fixing broken toys, having at times 10 or more guys milling around with a bunch of diesel trucks outside just daring the cops to bust us for the repeated burnout and smoke shows.... but we dont go on vacations, we dont go out to eat often, we dont spend money on new furniture or other fancy things that many folks do. I spend thousands of dollars a year on my engines and drivetrains. I get more power each year, and I make it smarter, better and stronger each year. One one day, I may be able to beat some of the guys with nearly unlimited funds. But I am not one. When I lost the 521 this year, it was the end for me. I will be back next year...but many of the guys I am competitng with would have been back together in a week or two. I dont have 20 grand in a shoe box. I work hard for my money. I own an online performance store, have a 7 bay garage, supply parts to other garages, and contract to Westinghouse during the spring and fall doing nuclear plant shutdown maintenance. I spend a ton of money to be faster than most, but I turn that in as advertising. And I do what I can afford. I dont have credit cards or loans out on my toys. If it breaks and I have the funds to fix it...I do. If it breaks and I am broke....lol... It sets. My wife drives a Ford Excursion that she does the daily kid hauling in, does the grocery shoping in, and I use it to sled pull as well. I get top 5 finishes in the Diesel Street Open class in my wifes child hauler...yes it is a runner. But it makes me back money as I sale parts. Hence...why I want the Mazda to run. If I can not go and hit the drag strip, hit the flashlight drags...and pick up the occasional street run...and win....how can get any respect and get into selling parts for imports? I need to crawl before I can walk, and walk before I run. My intentions are simple....learn the game, and play the game, and supply the game! Same thing I did in sled pulls, and same thing I did in Diesel performance. When I get into something....I get WAY into it. ALways have. I seem to take everything to an extreme so long as the money and ability to learn are there. When I get bored, I will find my next challenge and I will move on. Sorry for the long winded reply.... Just wanted to make sure I was not coming off as an all talk, all show off, nothing in the plan kind of guy. I plan my Speed6 to be one of the faster cars you will know of. So long as life continues to treat me well and I can afford to play, and my health remains.......its all in the name of good fun!

I do my own chassis work, design my own suspension, fabricate everything I need. I cant think of the last time I payed another person to make me a part I needed that could be fabricated in an average metal shop. I am a welder, I build engines, I tune my own stuff, I trouble shoot, I wire my own vehicles from scratch, and I get paid to do the same stuff to other folks trucks. We have state of the art plasma and welding equipment from Esab and Thermal-Arc. I stock steel plate from 1/16" to 1/4" and square bar to 4"x4" in 20 foot sections. So, I am not impressing you, but unlike most folks...normal life for me is modifying cars/trucks and fixing broken cars/trucks. And I love this shit! I just wish I had more cash to play with, and employees to work for me so I had the time to spend the cash on my toys!
 

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Glad to have you as part of the community. I'm sure we can learn from you as you learn from us. As far as the motor goes, I'm with the people saying look at CX-7's, more of those around than Speed 6's. I assume they have the same forged internals???
 

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I would look into seeing what all is different from the regular 2.3L block and if the turbo head and accessories will bolt up to it.
You would be way better off if you could just get a 2.3L block and build up the bottom end.
 

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OK, for hopefully the last time, THE MZR DISI 2.3L IS NOT THE SAME AS THE REGULAR 2.3L!!!!!!!!

DPP,

Now, if you want a place to start, get a boost gauge. Once you can see what the turbo is doing, go with a front mount intercooler (FMIC), cold air intake (CAI), catless exhaust 3" all the way back with no muffler, a boost controller, and an aftermarket bypass valve. That's the simple stuff.

Once we have an interface available to modify our timing and fuel, you can move on to the fun stuff. You get that, and you can make an exhaust manifold mated to a bigger turbo, a different intake manifold, maybe even cams if you have that ability. But the absolute first thing you should do is a little reseach on the direct injection motor; it is deffinately not your run-of-the-mill combustion engine. There are most likely some limits, however, I have heard that a highly modified MZR DISI block is being used in a 1050hp drag car, sponsered by Mazda of coarse. Potential is there, but patience is necessary.
 

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I would think that getting a 2.3L DISI engine wouldn't be all that expensive. Think about it. This powertrain is finding its way into a good deal of Mazda's line up. MPV in Japan for instance, possibly standard mazda6 even. Give it another year or so and im sure you could easily land one for under $10,000.
 

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OK, for hopefully the last time, THE MZR DISI 2.3L IS NOT THE SAME AS THE REGULAR 2.3L!!!!!!!!

DPP,

Now, if you want a place to start, get a boost gauge. Once you can see what the turbo is doing, go with a front mount intercooler (FMIC), cold air intake (CAI), catless exhaust 3" all the way back with no muffler, a boost controller, and an aftermarket bypass valve. That's the simple stuff.

Once we have an interface available to modify our timing and fuel, you can move on to the fun stuff. You get that, and you can make an exhaust manifold mated to a bigger turbo, a different intake manifold, maybe even cams if you have that ability. But the absolute first thing you should do is a little reseach on the direct injection motor; it is deffinately not your run-of-the-mill combustion engine. There are most likely some limits, however, I have heard that a highly modified MZR DISI block is being used in a 1050hp drag car, sponsered by Mazda of coarse. Potential is there, but patience is necessary.
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Yeah, I agree with ATE BALLER completely, start with simple boltons first, and then tuning, and then you can fabricate you own intake/exhaust manifolds, etc etc. And you even might have an advantage/experience over some other tuners from working with diesel trucks, tuning them, since we have a direct injection system simliar to a diesel engine. I dont know if you have the abilities(motec??) to get ahead of the tuning game, this would be the most important part to extract safe horsepower out of the motor, bigger turbos without tuning will blow the motor quick.

The 2.3L DISI should be pretty strong from what I've seen and read. However with this car, if you're going for big power numbers, you should also start looking at the weaker links of the drivetrain on this car, the AWD system and transmission. These will likely go first before you blow the motor. Good luck on the project!
 

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Discussion Starter #17
OK, for hopefully the last time, THE MZR DISI 2.3L IS NOT THE SAME AS THE REGULAR 2.3L!!!!!!!!

DPP,

Now, if you want a place to start, get a boost gauge. Once you can see what the turbo is doing, go with a front mount intercooler (FMIC), cold air intake (CAI), catless exhaust 3" all the way back with no muffler, a boost controller, and an aftermarket bypass valve. That's the simple stuff.

Once we have an interface available to modify our timing and fuel, you can move on to the fun stuff. You get that, and you can make an exhaust manifold mated to a bigger turbo, a different intake manifold, maybe even cams if you have that ability. But the absolute first thing you should do is a little reseach on the direct injection motor; it is deffinately not your run-of-the-mill combustion engine. There are most likely some limits, however, I have heard that a highly modified MZR DISI block is being used in a 1050hp drag car, sponsered by Mazda of coarse. Potential is there, but patience is necessary.
[/b]
I do believe that Turbonetics is working on a turbo upgrade for this engine...and being that I am a turbonetics dealer (Diesel performance :) ) I would chase this avenue in a hard way. I would love to find a way to get my ignition timing in my control so that I can make use of the 112 octane fuel (seen with the water/meth injection) and a larger turbo to lower EGT's and supply more air at slightly higher boost pressure. The water meth injection will afford me the ability to run timing that would destroy an engine not using it. The larger turbo (just like in a diesel) will give a bit more lag, but lower intake temps, and have a compressor map that can be happy living at 20 lbs of boost....or a bit more. A manual boost controler is a first step, and one that I do need to take without a doubt. The blow off valve, I hear some guys saying its a show off only part that makes fun sounds but that it does not bring anything to the table when compared to the stock one.......I have no clue....yet. I know that surge on a diesel will take out a turbo faster than anything...so surge here should have a similar effect. Imagine me grabbing your shirt and doing a hard and fast push/pull on you....that is what surge does to the turbo. It really beats the heck out of it. The question none of us really knows yet (I have not read about any 350-450HP speed6 cars yet) is if the crank, rods, associated bolts, head gaskets, main caps....etc...etc... can handle 400 or 450 HP hammering on them. It would be simple to go and get a nitrous controller and dump 100HP shot on this thing after doing the obvious, but it looks like if and when the turbo and tuner upgrades come about....the initial run of us will be beta testing the engines hard parts...sacrificing maybe...? our engine to let the masses know where the limits actually fall. If a tuner comes available that does not require cutting the harness....I am in. I plan to do the CP-E down pipe and I will most likely make my own from there back. I may also look at a boost fooler from a Ford 7.3 and see about splicing it into the MAP sensor....if that is the only thing checking for boost. The 7.3 boost foolers stop showing boost at 17 psi, this would allow you to do like the diesels and run big boost, but keep it hush-hush from the PCM...that way you dont trip the CEL and go into limp mode from overboost.

I am in DFW right now servicing a nuclear plant for the next 5 weeks or so, but when I get back to the home area, I will be back to getting parts on the speed and learning what it can do. And if the Flashlight drags are still going on...I will be there!
 

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boost fooler.....that would be cool....esp if you had a little larger turbo.
 

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IF you have complete fabrication capability, how about a camber adjustable front A arm? It'd help us with turn in/understeer in a big way, and there's a market for it!
 
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