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Try to remember that modern automatics are far more capable of sport driving too. WHen I was a younger man, I was die hard manual only. For cars like my 1st gen V6 you simply have to have a manual as the automatics are dramatically slower. But for cars like the 3 series, V8 sports cars and so forth, the modern automatic is just a better all around transmission.
 

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Try to remember that modern automatics are far more capable of sport driving too. WHen I was a younger man, I was die hard manual only. For cars like my 1st gen V6 you simply have to have a manual as the automatics are dramatically slower. But for cars like the 3 series, V8 sports cars and so forth, the modern automatic is just a better all around transmission.
My weekend/summer car is a Mustang V-8 with manual (20+ years now), so I come from a place of experience. Sorry, NOT "better" in terms of fun and for me - connects me to the car like no "better shifting" automatic can. I'll continue to buy and seek out manuals, so if BMW gets rid of them, I wouldn't even consider to buy. Same with Mazda - hope they're listening.
 

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The BMW M3 & M4 "Pure" model likely will be 6MT RWD... MY 2020...

More fun + more long-lived, yes. Anachronistic, off-the-ark technology, yes. Inferior, stoplight-to-stoplight, yes. Still worth buying, yes. Sorry, perverse love affair. Look at my Username hehe.
 

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I've yet to have to actually REPLACE a MTX in any vehicle. Nor has anyone I know of, OTHER THAN through ridiculous abuse (e.g. running it dry while leaking, thus no oil, putting GL5 in it which is a huge no-no and eats the synchros, speed-shifting and bending or breaking shift forks, etc.)

Now clutches are wear items, but that's subjective too. I own a TDI Jetta (well, my kid does now) with 250,000 miles on the STOCK clutch. It's "enhanced" somewhat on power too, and the factory clutch is known to be limited in torque-holding capacity. Yet.... it hasn't burnt up yet and the gearbox itself is just fine. The output seals are weeping a bit so WHEN the clutch eventually fails I'll change those when I have the gearbox out and it's easy (they're cheap too.) Go figure.

Many if not most ATX vehicles will make the FIRST 100,000 miles. Not very many make the SECOND 100,000, and WHEN they fail they cost a heck of a lot more than a clutch does to replace or rebuild. Modern ATXs are in many if not most cases effectively non-repairable except by a factory depot and thus there is no "repair"; they're essentially trash when they fail and if out of warranty expensive enough that they can economically total the vehicle.
 

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While I'm not going to comment which is better, which is easier, cheaper to repair, maintain, the bottom line is they are being phased out.

I will say the modern ATX goes much further than 100K unless abused obviously. Our fleet Ford ATX's which IMO are probably not the best (ATX's) of the bunch routinely go 250K+ miles before being replaced. About 40% make it the full 350K miles which is the point of when we replace the entire vehicle.

These are no longer your grandad's ATX's.

I will say.. I find it incredibly short sided that a person would only buy a vehicle that has a MTX but hey, it's your choice, at least for now.
 

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I've always considered it a matter of engagement with the vehicle. Yes, I've driven modern automatics (BMW, for one), and while they're just dandy for what they do, I still prefer that engagement.

Old guy out...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
 

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This is turning into the age-old Ford vs. Chevy battle. Everyone has their favorite, but there's no real winner.

But, if ATXs are getting better and better, while fewer and fewer drivers actually know how to drive MTX (let alone want to everyday), you can't fault automakers for making a business decision.

Yes, I love driving a manual. Always have, always will. But, I'm also perfectly driving an ATX also. It doesn't make me less of a driving enthusiast, or anything else for that matter.

Pretty soon, it won't make a damn difference, since we'll soon be stuck in electric econoboxes that think they can drive better than a human can...
 

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What's the point of posts like this? Us manual guys (and anyone who's ever driven a car, really) know full well our options are diminishing, so it really just appears you're trying to gloat or something. It's a niche market and there's always room for niche markets to thrive.

"But automatics shift faster" is such a pointless argument unless you use the car in question for professional racing. Manual transmissions make driving more fun (and safer, honestly), period. If you can't understand that, enjoy your slushbox and we'll enjoy actually driving our cars.
 

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Honda is still promoting manual. Honda is Teaching the Next Generation How to Drive Stick - The Drive

My ex liked driving my foxbody with a t5 so we went and got her a Civic SI which only comes with a six speed. I drove it home and she learned from there.




BMW's are gay. Most of their sporty customers moved onto Audi anyways. Car maker that brags about driver experience killing stick is just pounding nails in their coffin. My best friend had an M3 with the SMG trans which is an actual computer shifted/clutched manual. That has a shifter and no clutch pedal. On the street that car was as fast as an 04 z06, but I thought it was just kind of queer to not have the third pedal.
 

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What's the point of posts like this? Us manual guys (and anyone who's ever driven a car, really) know full well our options are diminishing, so it really just appears you're trying to gloat or something. It's a niche market and there's always room for niche markets to thrive.

"But automatics shift faster" is such a pointless argument unless you use the car in question for professional racing. Manual transmissions make driving more fun (and safer, honestly), period. If you can't understand that, enjoy your slushbox and we'll enjoy actually driving our cars.
After your butt hurt response I guess the point of the post is to enjoy a good laugh.

I'm sorry you can't deal with the reality that the MTX is disappearing.

Guess I better keep my S2000 with the MTX so I can keep my man card.
 

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What's the point of posts like this? Us manual guys (and anyone who's ever driven a car, really) know full well our options are diminishing, so it really just appears you're trying to gloat or something. It's a niche market and there's always room for niche markets to thrive.

"But automatics shift faster" is such a pointless argument unless you use the car in question for professional racing. Manual transmissions make driving more fun (and safer, honestly), period. If you can't understand that, enjoy your slushbox and we'll enjoy actually driving our cars.
After your butt hurt response I guess the point of the post is to enjoy a good laugh.

I'm sorry you can't deal with the reality that the MTX is disappearing.

Guess I better keep my S2000 with the MTX so I can keep my man card.
No butthurt on my end at all, honest. The admission that you get a laugh out of intentionally trying to upset people who have the same interest you supposedly have says more about you than anyone else. Not sure what you're on about with the man card statement, but again, that says more about you than others.
 

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There's nothing like a manual in a place where you can really drive, but in city traffic, I find it close to torture. My first car happened to be a manual. I drove it until I had enough money to buy a car I chose and I vowed, never again would I drive one daily, especially since my city is very hilly as well as crazy with stop and go traffic. These days most of us spend the majority of our driving time in the city and just don't want to deal with shifting. I've often wanted to pretend I'm anywhere else but in the car and don't want to deal with a stick while stuck on a hill in traffic.

Most of my friends don't even know how to drive a manual. Car makers are naturally responding to this. I wouldn't buy one again, except maybe as a second car or if I move way out and don't have to deal with traffic on any regular basis.
 

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I've yet to have to actually REPLACE a MTX in any vehicle. Nor has anyone I know of, OTHER THAN through ridiculous abuse (e.g. running it dry while leaking, thus no oil, putting GL5 in it which is a huge no-no and eats the synchros, speed-shifting and bending or breaking shift forks, etc.)

Many if not most ATX vehicles will make the FIRST 100,000 miles. Not very many make the SECOND 100,000, and WHEN they fail they cost a heck of a lot more than a clutch does to replace or rebuild. Modern ATXs are in many if not most cases effectively non-repairable except by a factory depot and thus there is no "repair"; they're essentially trash when they fail and if out of warranty expensive enough that they can economically total the vehicle.
I agree

The problem with better technology in Automatics is the cost of them keep going up & up to the point where they cost as much as the Engine itself which is ridiculous. Also since they're so advanced you can't really get them rebuilt like older transmissions & if they do get rebuilt I read like only 30% of them are actually rebuilt correctly. Remember more Technology in a car = More $$$ to Buy/Repair as well.
 

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Yep.

I don't WANT technology in my car. Among other things it's not replaceable or upgradeable, I'm stuck with whatever the manufacturer put in there. If I think it's ok today, I might not tomorrow as tech advances. If I buy new I keep them for a LONG time; there are three in my household right now, all bought new, and only the "6" is less than 10 years old -- with all still on the road, looking decent and running well.

I just replaced my laptop -- the former unit was made in 2011. They finally (Intel Coffee Lake) made a processor that was worth paying money to replace the former laptop in terms of feature set and improvement for the money spent. But if I buy tech in a car in 2011 and six or seven years later there's something worth buying..... I just gave up HALF the holding period and a big chunk of change over what I do today. No thanks.

Automakers would love to turn cars into "transportation as a service".. How's that working out for everyone in other fields? You're paying more and getting less; you have no equity in whatever you use and you're spending more money on a yearly basis. Adobe and Microsoft are just two examples. Are there "more advances" in newer versions? Sure, but do I need them? No. What's wrong with Photoshop CS6 that the newest "cloud" version gives me? Nothing. But Adobe LOVES YOU if you spend $40+/month -- roughly $500/year instead of $500 ONCE, and then not again for three, four, five or TEN years.

Firms that do this crap ought to be run out of business and their executives hung. But nooooo! Boobus Americanus laps this up and then wonders why if they don't have a paycheck for two weeks they're broke.

Well?
 

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Yep.

I don't WANT technology in my car. Among other things it's not replaceable or upgradeable, I'm stuck with whatever the manufacturer put in there. If I think it's ok today, I might not tomorrow as tech advances. If I buy new I keep them for a LONG time; there are three in my household right now, all bought new, and only the "6" is less than 10 years old -- with all still on the road, looking decent and running well.

I just replaced my laptop -- the former unit was made in 2011. They finally (Intel Coffee Lake) made a processor that was worth paying money to replace the former laptop in terms of feature set and improvement for the money spent. But if I buy tech in a car in 2011 and six or seven years later there's something worth buying..... I just gave up HALF the holding period and a big chunk of change over what I do today. No thanks.

Automakers would love to turn cars into "transportation as a service".. How's that working out for everyone in other fields? You're paying more and getting less; you have no equity in whatever you use and you're spending more money on a yearly basis. Adobe and Microsoft are just two examples. Are there "more advances" in newer versions? Sure, but do I need them? No. What's wrong with Photoshop CS6 that the newest "cloud" version gives me? Nothing. But Adobe LOVES YOU if you spend $40+/month -- roughly $500/year instead of $500 ONCE, and then not again for three, four, five or TEN years.

Firms that do this crap ought to be run out of business and their executives hung. But nooooo! Boobus Americanus laps this up and then wonders why if they don't have a paycheck for two weeks they're broke.

Well?
You're buying a car for the service it renders, transportation. You don't buy a car for an investment or to have equity. It's nothing short of a disposable.

Last I checked you're still free to choose what you buy. No one is holding a gun to your head making you buy the latest and greatest anything. If you want it and can afford it you buy it. If not, you don't. Seems pretty simple to me.
 

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You're buying a car for the service it renders, transportation. You don't buy a car for an investment or to have equity. It's nothing short of a disposable.

Last I checked you're still free to choose what you buy. No one is holding a gun to your head making you buy the latest and greatest anything. If you want it and can afford it you buy it. If not, you don't. Seems pretty simple to me.
Yep. And with the way automakers are going, I may never buy a "new" vehicle again. Ever.

I have bought new vehicles because on-balance, IF YOU KEEP THEM UNTIL THEY'RE BASICALLY "Used Up" they can have a lower cost-per-mile *and* have a higher utility value over their service life. If you trade or sell them anywhere before they're 5th - 10th birthday, not so much. Part of this, however, is that nobody turns a wrench on my cars other than myself. That both contributes to the reliability factor (since I know exactly what was done, when and how) and greatly lowers carrying cost. Those who use the stealer get neither of those benefits.

Automakers hate people like me because I buy infrequently. They'd love to try to make my buying more-frequent. Well, they can try, but they will not succeed. All they will succeed in doing is turning my infrequent "new" buying behavior into never buying new.

I'll likely not live long enough for that to become impractical, but most of you here probably will.... at which point you will lose optionality entirely. I think that's terrible, but heh, it's on you folks since as you noted it's simply a matter of supply and demand.
 

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Yep. And with the way automakers are going, I may never buy a "new" vehicle again. Ever.

I have bought new vehicles because on-balance, IF YOU KEEP THEM UNTIL THEY'RE BASICALLY "Used Up" they can have a lower cost-per-mile *and* have a higher utility value over their service life. If you trade or sell them anywhere before they're 5th - 10th birthday, not so much. Part of this, however, is that nobody turns a wrench on my cars other than myself. That both contributes to the reliability factor (since I know exactly what was done, when and how) and greatly lowers carrying cost. Those who use the stealer get neither of those benefits.

Automakers hate people like me because I buy infrequently. They'd love to try to make my buying more-frequent. Well, they can try, but they will not succeed. All they will succeed in doing is turning my infrequent "new" buying behavior into never buying new.

I'll likely not live long enough for that to become impractical, but most of you here probably will.... at which point you will lose optionality entirely. I think that's terrible, but heh, it's on you folks since as you noted it's simply a matter of supply and demand.

I agree with you. My first Japanese made car purchase and hopefully goes past 8 years, previous 2 American cars (GM & DaimlerChrysler) haven't been able to do that without major spending (over $3000).
 

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Yep. And with the way automakers are going, I may never buy a "new" vehicle again. Ever.

I have bought new vehicles because on-balance, IF YOU KEEP THEM UNTIL THEY'RE BASICALLY "Used Up" they can have a lower cost-per-mile *and* have a higher utility value over their service life. If you trade or sell them anywhere before they're 5th - 10th birthday, not so much. Part of this, however, is that nobody turns a wrench on my cars other than myself. That both contributes to the reliability factor (since I know exactly what was done, when and how) and greatly lowers carrying cost. Those who use the stealer get neither of those benefits.

Automakers hate people like me because I buy infrequently. They'd love to try to make my buying more-frequent. Well, they can try, but they will not succeed. All they will succeed in doing is turning my infrequent "new" buying behavior into never buying new.

I'll likely not live long enough for that to become impractical, but most of you here probably will.... at which point you will lose optionality entirely. I think that's terrible, but heh, it's on you folks since as you noted it's simply a matter of supply and demand.
Clearly, the manufacturers aren't catering or going to cater to folks like yourself. They're catering to the buyers and there are plenty of them to cater to. I'm one of them. I treat myself to a new DD every two three years and a new truck every new gen.

Looking at how many new vehicles are sold every year, clearly I'm not the only one. Whether someone buys once every year or twenty years there are buyers waiting to buy. It's all about doing what floats your boat. IMO the important thing is to do what makes you happy. The rest of us are (hopefully) doing what makes us happy.

I've found that when we push our views and thoughts on other people we are quickly tuned out. As far as automobiles go, technology marches on. You can embrace it, get on board or be left behind. I don't think it really matters what you or I think about it.

.
 

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As for me... I prefer "simple, long-lived, basic, and (then usually) excellent value-for-$" hence I have a Sport 6mt. I simply could not abide with buying a car where I did not have access to the factory svce. manual... like BMW, for example. I could not abide with buying a car where each and every (manual) transmission part is not available for purchase - for a full rebuild-by-self or by a Tech... like you cannot do for a BMW. For me familiarity breeds comfort, happy feelings, not contempt. Truly, I have never met a car I couldn't make friends with... LOL, so I keep 'em for a long time.
 
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