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This discussion seems to keep getting hashed up in other places. What say you all? We've started seeing parts coming along but nothing really noteworthy. Tunes seem to have good potential, but the ball keeps getting dropped. How about something a member here can easily do with funds.

Meth injection for a NA car that loves to run on the edge! The benefit is not as pronounced, but we're talking significantly cooled IAT's with a bit more punch to the fuel.

E85 fuel, is our engine/fueling system even compatible? Has anyone tried it? This one will sacrifice MPG a bit as well if possible. But, several here seem quite happy to give up a couple MPG to get closer to an actual 200HP.

Let's see some new info and have a nice lively discussion without dirtying up product threads. hopefully all the leaving out the intake/axle-back stuff.. it's a dead horse, LOL (unless you have proof positive with quantitative results).
 

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switching to e85 or meth on its own will not gain you power. people use meth or e85 for cooling to allow for higher timing advance to gain power. That would require tuning, which obviously has not been unlocked yet.
 

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First - Thanks for starting this in an alternate thread.

switching to e85 or meth on its own will not gain you power. people use meth or e85 for cooling to allow for higher timing advance to gain power. That would require tuning, which obviously has not been unlocked yet.
Agreed with Hector. I switch to higher octane Shell to clean out my system once every 6 months or so. The added nitrogen doesn't hurt the car, and I'm trying to find out if it helps over time.

The V6 used to CRAVE higher octane and I definitely felt a gain in performance, but it was only a butt dyno so who knows.

These skyactive engines, like @tickerguy was saying, aren't going to respond to higher octane like some people seem to think they will.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
You're welcome byakuya, it's been long overdue :) - my apologies for feeding along also in other threads.

That's what I'm interested to see about the E85/meth options. Since part of the skyactiv suite means the ECU is running the engine up as close as it can to max timing without causing detonation, it's hard to know without really trying.

I'm quite sure once the tuning is out there we have a ton of potential, but the thought process here was to bring temperature down and allow the ecu to possibly add more timing and extract more power. With a colder charge of air you may get even 1-2* more advance. It's not a lot, but it can make just enough of a difference IF the ECU would allow for it. (same for E85 and meth^).

In general people tend to under-estimate what the ECU of a car is capable of adapting to. It's rarely optimal, but the LTFT and STFT are capable of dialing up and down the fuel flow quite a lot in other cars. I'm not sure if the fuel trims learn in this car, or if fuel is somewhat static and it's the timing and valve events that change. It's quite the technical little thing either way :p. As an example, with 10 year older tech my car adapted to a cam with 5* of cam advance, 36* of overlap duration, and MUCH MUCH higher volume flowing heads.. and it was only a little rich, mostly due to the reverb from the open headers causing the o2's to pick up "lean" outside air


And any other thoughts on power gain options are MORE than welcome here. That is entirely what this thread is for :D. hand ported throttle body perhaps? I honestly don't even know what the TB port on our car looks like! :eek: (shame on me right? I know my other car's engine from oil pan to air filter, LOL!)
 

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Fuel trims definitely learn (a lot) in this ECU.

The question is where the limits on the fuel and timing (most-particularly VALVE timing) maps are in the ECU. I've yet to see an automotive ECU that is fully-dynamic; ALL of them select a map table in effect and then scale to some degree from that. That's bullshit given the processing and sensor capabilities we have, but it's how they ALL work.

Give me a few million in R&D and I would change that BIG.... hell, a retrofit is potentially possible (but very illegal for street use unless you went through the entire certification nonsense; thank the EPA for that horsecrap.)

If you're serious about this the first place to start in exploring those limits with the stock ECU would be to find some 100UL (hard stuff to find, but not impossible) -- Sunoco and a few others make it. The major refiners all WILL within a couple more years as a replacement for 100LL Avgas, which will make it easily-available.

Pull a dyno on RUG with the tank nearly empty then fill with 100 UL and pull another one after driving for ~50 miles or so to allow the ECU to adapt and see what you get.
 

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I think tickerguy brough up a decent potential option for some people in another thread: find the part number for the head gasket on the european M6s and swap, then the tricky part of getting the European ECU flash and walla 14:1 compression ratio, 189hp some other torque and better fuel economy and total stock, albeit for a different country and running 91 octane minimum.

Regarding proof of power improvement potential with the intake and exhaust, I'll post what I've consolidated over time on that hopefully sometime this weekend. There will never be proof to the skeptic, by I will consolidate a lot of supporting evidence that is floating around out there.
 

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Yes there is; pull a dyno, change ONE THING, pull a second on on the SAME tank of fuel with correction for difference in ambient temperature (if any) between the two runs.

That's called "science."
I've got one of those to post, but you probably won't believe it cause it was sent from an iphone and isn't signed by the operator...

That's okay, juries don't need proof to render a decision just evidence. People can be their own jury based on the information that is out there. I think this thread is as good a place as any to dump the evidence in support of my assertions.

Stay tuned.
 
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Fuel trims definitely learn (a lot) in this ECU.

The question is where the limits on the fuel and timing (most-particularly VALVE timing) maps are in the ECU. I've yet to see an automotive ECU that is fully-dynamic; ALL of them select a map table in effect and then scale to some degree from that. That's bullshit given the processing and sensor capabilities we have, but it's how they ALL work.
1. From Motor Trend:

"According to Talksum, a big-data and vehicle communications firm, the typical new car today generates 15 gigabytes of information per hour"

2. From Forbes about Ford Fusion Energi:

the car has more than 145 actuators, 4,716 signals, and 74 sensors to monitor the perimeter around the car as well as the car’s functions and driver responses. These sensors produce more than 25 gigabytes of data hourly from more than 70 on-board computers that analyze it in real-time.”
 

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Evidence of Potential Power Improvements with Aftermarket Intake and Exhaust

Alright. Everything here is linked to the original and all quotes are in italics. Anything not in italics is from me giving context to what is presented.
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First, from robdeniro a Mazda 6 driver hopping out of his car into crf50racer's car which has the corksport sri and prototype exhaust:
Thanks for meeting up bro was a pleasure! Your pics really make my car look like an SUV... Also Corksport needs to release that exhaust crf50racer has on his car pulls like a mule and sounds aggressive as hell!
http://forum.mazda6club.com/3922626-post96.html
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From davexx01 on both racing beat axle back exhaust and corksport SRI:
I raced a co workers Festiva ST with a Cobb Stage 1 tune (in Mexico) one cool evening. We did 3 runs at about 35 and 40 through second gear into 3rd.
He would get the jump on me initially but I would reel him in after a couple seconds.
He was never more than 1 car length ahead.
I did mod the intake/engine area with simple cardboard to block the radiator/radiator hose heat from hitting the filter. It worked somewhat good.
I went back to stock yesterday and ran my buddy again late last night,,,,, he easily pulled away and I could no longer even try to keep up with him.

Although I have zero dyno pulls with these mods I can say without a doubt that both these items do in fact help! Especially in the top end of the RPM band.
http://forum.mazda6club.com/engine-drivetrain/314193-2-5g-power-potential-4.html#post4138841
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Orange Virus Tuning was able to compare via datalogging two cars, one that is stock and one that has K&N Typhoon intake and Racing Beat Exhaust, and the flow rate at max is 130 g/sec stock vs. 170 g/sec with intake and exhaust
http://forum.mazda6club.com/2-5l-i-...ults-technical-discussion-12.html#post4348961
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CRF50racer commenting on the corksport axleback exhaust:
Also, I made a comment about no noticeable power gain. I can happily say that I was mistaken. The easiest way to explain the gain is to say that driving around with 3 passengers & the air conditioning on max is like driving around solo with the air off.
http://forum.mazda6club.com/3614202-post17.html
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Testimonial from Donkey Grundle on Tanabe Axleback:
I just got the Medalion installed last night. I can hardly notice a difference in cabin noise and it's far too cold to run around with the windows down right now, but it seems to sound nice when I really listen for it. I did, however, notice an immediate improvement in low-end torque. It's not going to burn up any tires or anything, but it definitely makes it easier to get going from a light with the MTX.
http://forum.mazda6club.com/2-5l-i-4/344289-tanabe-medalian-exhaust-5.html#post4616514
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See attached Photo 1 for this comment. He was also running 91 octane. If you convert to flywheel assuming 10% drivetrain losses this is right at 200hp. He tested in Oregon in the winter so temps were cool and humidity low to moderate:
Here is the dyno from my most recent run. I am super happy with 177hp. About 15 more than I expected. This is a baseline with only an Injen Intake. Photo 10
http://forum.mazda6club.com/3889865-post2.html
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From Corksport: Our intake also features a durable Dry-Flow air filter and custom reinforced silicone connector. In initial testing on the 2014 SkyActiv Mazda 6, the CorkSport SkyActiv Short Ram Intake netted peak gains of +9hp and +12lb/ft of torque.
2014+ Mazda6 2.5L SkyActiv Power Series Short Ram Intake
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From injen regarding 3rd version of CAI intake:
Thanks Vance. I contacted Adrian this morning, and this is what he said:

"...The intake system is available and is been updated to have correct fuel trim readings. The intake system was dyno tested and produced anywhere from 11-13 HP. The p/n:SP6073"

So a little short of 16hp (which would have been amazing), but still a respectable gain for a $175 bolt-on upgrade.
http://forum.mazda6club.com/3697457-post32.html
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See Photo 2 for 2014 Mazda3 2.5G (Same engine as topic of discussion here) axleback Dyno from corksport. Pay attention to increase in max torque also which is over 10ft-lbs at the wheels

CORKSPORT 2014+ Mazda 3 Axle Back Exhaust
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This is fellow mazda6club member monkey who's car was used to develop the 2nd gen Injen CAI intake, and the dyno run they had performed on his car. See Photo 3.
Dyno plot of my car. Quote on email..."notice the conditions, others will get better results with cooler conditions."
http://forum.mazda6club.com/3542308-post94.html
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K&N 3rd Gen M6 application specific cone filter with heat shield gets a stated 5.7 hp over stock on a dyno. See Photo 4. If you look at the dyno plot the peak to peak is probably right around 10 hp gains, and they have almost 8 lb-ft improvment in torque.
http://forum.mazda6club.com/2-5l-i-4/321946-k-n-intake-gen-3-mz6.html#post4170722
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Testimonial on Injen CAI Intake
Yes sir 1st and 2nd gear are better and acceleration it's freaking better man.
http://forum.mazda6club.com/3909249-post71.html
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Testimonial on Intake:
OK pick up u feel for sure and sounds great
http://forum.mazda6club.com/3531525-post50.html
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Testimonial on Injen CAI Intake
What I've noticed since adding the Injen CAI. Throttle response has improved. I'm led footed, so I notice a bit of a "jump" in the throttle when I first step on the gas off the line...but it can be remedied with a lighter press. Much more engine noise. There is a deep growl when you first give it some gas up to 3K RPM in 1st gear, all the way to 2500K RPM onto 2nd gear, after that it seems to be less growl in the upper gears. Cruising at 60 with a light foot or maintained speed, it almost sounds stock with normal engine noise. Punch it from maintained 60MPH to 80 MPH, little growl but I felt the difference from stock to now...much more responsive. There is not one time where the CAI "bogged" down the 6. Every gear, every step on the gas feels like stock...just with more power, more tourqe and more sweet sound.
http://forum.mazda6club.com/3544502-post116.html
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Testimonial on Injen CAI Intake
I have the INJEN CAI, and it made a SIGNIFICANT difference in the 1st and 2nd Gears of the car (more torque)! How much? I do not know b/c I do not have the $200+ to have it hooked to a DYNO and confirm.
http://forum.mazda6club.com/3907793-post21.html
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My own testimonial on my single side straight through muffler axleback mod:
Performance: No dyno baseline and no after dyno baseline sorry. So for a buttdyno, just driving off with the factory muffler still in the trunk (i.e. no weight savings improvement) this feels like a standard passenger car muffler restriction removal. What I mean by that is the skyactiv muffler does not somehow flow rediculously well, I am seeing the same improvements as on previous Nissan 4cylinders:
The engine no longer feels soft. I would not say throttle response time is improved, but from the time the motor starts reacting to the throttle until full thrust is acheived has gone to zero.
Just pulling out into traffic normally the car accelerated faster than normal, and cruising down the street it seemed to take a smidge less throttle than before, so part throttle performance is significantly better at sub 4k RPMs.
Full throttle feels faster all the way through the powerband. This is probably a 7-10 hp/tq gain not a 3-5hp/tq gain.
http://forum.mazda6club.com/engine-drivetrain/297345-post-your-custom-exhaust-here.html#post3909297
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My own Testimonials on the Corksport SRI Intake:
the SRI is weird in that it feels like a weight reduction, very subtle, where the engine/car is simply quicker at all rpms, as in it's almost more noticeable visually and time wise than a harder kick in the butt like the exhaust change was. The biggest drivability impression on me other than the sound at WOT from 4k on up is that everything feels lighter now. Everything is easier for the engine.
http://forum.mazda6club.com/engine-...ed-injen-cai-corksport-sri-6.html#post4085289


I said before that I felt 91 octane was improving the responsiveness of the car, something I felt. You tried 91 octane and you acknowledged you feel the same thing.

I added an intake, I felt a performance benefit. When I took the car out with the intake for the first time I actually wore a pair of ear plugs so I wouldn't be fooling myself by the sound. The car felt faster, I watched the speeds I reached over distances I am familiar with in this car, the car was moving faster; something I could notice and in-line with a 5% increase in power across the rpm range (not a heck of a lot, agreed?).

I'm not fooling myself, nor are the others who say they feel/notice an improvement as well.
http://forum.mazda6club.com/engine-...ved-injen-cold-air-intake-11.html#post4094914
 

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Note that at another forum I frequent there is a Dynojet pair of pulls (same dyno) on an unmodified TDI and then one that has been modded that were posted in the last 48 hours.

The unmodified car allegedly pulled a dyno number at the wheels that exceeded the rated power output at the crank by 10%. That obviously didn't really happen, and applying the same derating to the "tuned" pull plus expected driveline losses (in percentages) gives a more-realistic figure. It is still impressive (and the percentage gain remains as it was), but not AS impressive on a raw number basis.

Without a baseline there would be no way to call "BS!" on that "tuned" pull -- other than the experience of others with the same engine and similar mods saying "uh uh!", which of course would be shouted down as being a "negative Nancy." WITH the baseline the fact that the dyno is grossly overreporting horsepower isn't a point of debate; it's fact.

This illustrates why you need two pulls on the same dyno if you're going to get any sort of honest answer on whether a mod works, and if it does how well it works -- one stock before you begin changing things, and a second one afterward. Dynojet is known among the tuning/building community in general to be "optimistic", incidentally.... but as with all measuring devices unless you have a baseline you have no idea how to assess what you're shown after the fact.
 

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This is what I'm eagerly looking forward to...the ECU flash for our Sky-G 2.5L, by Orange Virus Tuning.

MazdaEdit Software Supported vehicles that we tune include:

Mazda CX-7 (2.5NA) 2010MY+ [all markets]
Mazda MPV (2.3NA,3.0NA) [JDM/ADM]
Mazda3 (1.6NA, 2.0NA, 2.3NA, 3.0) 1st generation [all markets]
Mazda3 (1.6NA, 2.0NA, 2.5NA) 2nd generation [all markets]
*Mazda3 (SkyActiv 2.0NA, 2.5NA) 3rd generation [all markets]
Mazda5 (Premacy) (2.0NA, 2.5NA) 2nd generation [all markets]
Mazda6 (1.8NA, 2.0NA, 2.3NA) 1st generation [all markets]
Mazda6 (1.8NA, 2.0NA, 2.5NA) 2nd generation [all markets]
*Mazda6 (SkyActiv 2.0NA, 2.5NA) 3rd generation [all markets]
2003-2011MY+ [all markets]
Mazda2 (1.3NA, 1.5NA) 3rd generation 2007+ [all markets]
*Mazda CX-5 (SkyActiv 2.0NA, 2.5NA) [all markets]

*Tunes on skyactiv models with the 2.5L engine are currently being tested and information regarding tune release will be at a later date*

The testimonials:

http://ovtuned.com/testimonials.html

OrangeVirus Tuning
 

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On M3R forums they are having the same discussions we are here about tuning the 2.5. The ECU was mentioned in regards to accommodating two mappings. Normal and Sport mode. Since the mapping of Sport mode already exists from Mazda , wouldn't it be easy to extract the programming so any of our models can run on that mapping permanently? Won't add power but at least increase responsiveness. Thoughts ?
 

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I have ask someone i trust about water/meth on n/a engine
 

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Note that at another forum I frequent there is a Dynojet pair of pulls (same dyno) on an unmodified TDI and then one that has been modded that were posted in the last 48 hours.

The unmodified car allegedly pulled a dyno number at the wheels that exceeded the rated power output at the crank by 10%. That obviously didn't really happen, and applying the same derating to the "tuned" pull plus expected driveline losses (in percentages) gives a more-realistic figure. It is still impressive (and the percentage gain remains as it was), but not AS impressive on a raw number basis.

Without a baseline there would be no way to call "BS!" on that "tuned" pull -- other than the experience of others with the same engine and similar mods saying "uh uh!", which of course would be shouted down as being a "negative Nancy." WITH the baseline the fact that the dyno is grossly overreporting horsepower isn't a point of debate; it's fact.

This illustrates why you need two pulls on the same dyno if you're going to get any sort of honest answer on whether a mod works, and if it does how well it works -- one stock before you begin changing things, and a second one afterward. Dynojet is known among the tuning/building community in general to be "optimistic", incidentally.... but as with all measuring devices unless you have a baseline you have no idea how to assess what you're shown after the fact.
Agreed. But it doesn't necessarily mean the 1st dyno is wrong, it just means it MAY be wrong, but it could just as easily be right, and is in line with performance gains being mentioned off the record by the vendors.

Also that discussion only applies to the first of the 3 dyno charts I provided, because the other two dyno charts I provided do have baselines.
 

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I think physical changes to the entire induction/intake system to lower air temps should be thought of as a mod for those that make other mods such that their engine is riding the knock sensor almost all the time or will be able to take advantage of an ECU tune that pushes the engine settings up against the knock sensor.

* Insulating the intake manifold which has a lot of surface area between the hot engine block and radiator fan could reduce the amount of heat added to the intake charge.
* Insulating the entire air intake box and ducting to the throttle body which again is right in front of the other radiator fan would also reduce the amount of heat added to the intake charge
* Also the stock air draw isn't the best. By ensuring only air external to the engine bay is what gets into the intake system would reduce temps most dramatically except when the engine is still relatively cold.

I'll be doing those things within the next two months.
 

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Pull out Torque and real-time log the intake temperature before spending the time and money on this. I don't think you're going to get much (if anything) based on what I've seen of intake temperature logs.
 
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